Why Brandon Turner's Investors Lost 100% (And What It Means For You)

Mike DeHaan: [0:01] What's going on, guys? Welcome to collecting keys. I am Mike Tahan here with my cohost, Dan Austin and Dylan Cook. And if you're new to the show, that's a joke about Dylan. We make fun of being a slacker because he's probably one of the most put together and highest achieving people that Dan and I know.

Dylan Koch: [0:17] Oh, thanks, Mike. You're making up for last week. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [0:20] Well, as part of the bro code, we gotta bring him down. You know? That's that's how it works.

Dan Austin: [0:23] I don't think I wanna use this right. Mike, you'll be able to tell me on my lingo, but is Dylan is this called retard maxing? Is that what Dylan was doing?

Mike DeHaan: [0:30] We were gonna put that right in the first, like,

Dan Austin: [0:32] you, I mean, have you heard of this?

Dylan Koch: [0:34] Yes. I have heard

Dan Austin: [0:35] of it on Yeah. What is it? I've heard of this and people use it like, it's like a normal thing to say.

Dylan Koch: [0:40] No. It's like adjective maxing. It's not just a thing. Prefer maxing. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [0:44] There's like that one guy that's like a look looks maxer that was like all over, like, sixty minutes and stuff for like a week and then disappeared. Oh, I've never seen that. Because he overdosed on meth in a club. Oh, no. Or fentanyl or some shit. But, yeah, to your point, it's like adjective maxing is like the current

Dan Austin: [1:00] Oh, I thought like the the the r word was like a thing like a lot of people said. No. Just in my circle.

Dylan Koch: [1:07] Maybe in a different context. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [1:09] I would say I think that what you're seeing is the people that are picking up on how ridiculous of a trend the adjective maxing thing is. Okay. They're making a joke fun of it. Okay.

Dan Austin: [1:20] See, I'm trying to get into this thing, but I'm just I'm missing the point, I guess.

Mike DeHaan: [1:24] But the thing is, it's dry enough humor that there's people that think that it's real.

Dan Austin: [1:27] That's what, I was like, that's real dude. I don't know. What are they talking about? I think because like there's, there's semi serious people that I listen to on podcasts or Instagram that are saying it. I'm like, man, is that a real thing? Because that's, that's pretty abrasive to say.

Dylan Koch: [1:39] There's an ex account called Autism Capital, and they use like an autism maxing the other day. It it's actually a good follow. Like that that it was humorous.

Dan Austin: [1:48] Autism maxing or autism Both. What was it?

Mike DeHaan: [1:52] I think the fact that you didn't pick up on that joke, Dan, means that you're officially, like, old now.

Dan Austin: [1:56] Because I thought they were joking, but, like, I didn't know if it was, like, a real thing. Okay?

Mike DeHaan: [2:00] No, dude. It's like when when we were in, like, middle school, high school, and you have all old people that are like, are kids actually out there crumping? You know, like

Dan Austin: [2:07] I understand. What that is. Getting

Mike DeHaan: [2:11] crunked. You know? Like, doing doing crazy stuff.

Dan Austin: [2:13] I thought you said crumping. I did. I meant crunking. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I was like, okay. So I know what

Mike DeHaan: [2:18] You know? But get it. And you could just, like, say, like, anything that was, like, kind of an inside joke that people would think was serious for some reason because some rappers said it, except now it's not rappers. It's, you know, social media influencers. Okay.

Dan Austin: [2:31] Yeah. I am getting old, I guess.

Mike DeHaan: [2:33] It's the time. The jokes.

Dan Austin: [2:34] The problem is the guys I heard say it were older than me.

Dylan Koch: [2:37] Yeah. They probably don't know what they did. Right? They're quite just like going along with the ride. They you know?

Dan Austin: [2:43] That's

Mike DeHaan: [2:43] true. That is something that I would say is kind of interesting to observe. And I mean, I don't know if it's always been like this, but there's definitely like a a spectrum of millennials, like, maturity and age. Right? Because, like, we have, like, a finance business, which is kinda like a old person sort of job. Right? And but even, like, within the industry, like, we are definitely kind of degenerates in there. There are people our age, Dan, who are professionals out, like, playing video games and, like, doing, like, shit to entertain children. Like, there's, like, streamers and different stuff that are, like, our age, dude. You know?

Dan Austin: [3:16] And Job molesters who 100%.

Mike DeHaan: [3:18] No. Even if they're not, like, that's just like what they've done. Or like, they they are professional influencers that just make like ridiculous videos and do different things and probably make a lot more money than us. Right?

Dan Austin: [3:28] I'm gonna stay on this. I'm gonna die on the sword that anybody that has an overall interest in entertaining kids or partial to kids is a job buster.

Dylan Koch: [3:35] Well, okay. Let's change the subject a

Mike DeHaan: [3:37] little bit. I wouldn't I wouldn't die

Dan Austin: [3:38] on that.

Dylan Koch: [3:39] That's great. That's good for you.

Mike DeHaan: [3:43] Don't disagree. Like, can't agree or disagree.

Dylan Koch: [3:46] In a similar vein, I think I was meeting with like a financial planner who wanted some money from me or whatever. But keep in mind, this guy's probably in his mid forties and he left, like, I said something and his response was bet. I'm like, that disturbed that disturbed that deep for the like, deep down, man.

Dan Austin: [4:05] There's a certain level where you just stop talking like kids. You should not do that. You should not take on like 13 year old boy language.

Mike DeHaan: [4:11] Yeah. And

Dylan Koch: [4:12] then he's like, apologizes. I got my kids saying, like, this is not helping. Sorry.

Mike DeHaan: [4:15] Well, next time you see him and he asks you how it's going, just give him like a six seven. You know, do you wanna lose?

Dylan Koch: [4:21] I've refused. My my pride would be hurt

Dan Austin: [4:24] too much.

Mike DeHaan: [4:24] You'd be on his playing field. You're building rapport. That's what it's Yeah.

Dylan Koch: [4:27] But I don't I don't care about his rapport.

Mike DeHaan: [4:28] Did get

Dan Austin: [4:29] a crash course when we had those kids working for us, adult children, by the way, working for us. Got a crash course in in like that that stuff. I was like, what did he just like, I didn't know half the stuff they were saying. I had to learn.

Mike DeHaan: [4:41] Yeah. And it's funny because it's like being that age, I'm like, was I 21 going on, like, 15? I felt like I was kind of old when I was 21.

Dan Austin: [4:50] I definitely never used slang in a professional environment.

Mike DeHaan: [4:53] No. I definitely didn't either. Well, because like I was also trying to get like real jobs. We were trying to get into engineering companies. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [4:59] Like we were like yeah. You had to like work hard back then especially get a job.

Mike DeHaan: [5:02] I know.

Dan Austin: [5:03] When you

Mike DeHaan: [5:03] had to go there, you had like your resume and you had your weird like semi formal clothes that you had to wear to the office. I remember when I I dug out this pair of pants that I had to wear Oh

Dan Austin: [5:12] my gosh.

Mike DeHaan: [5:13] To go to a job interview. And because I was a

Dan Austin: [5:16] Especially in college, because for all the listeners, I don't think Mike ever wore pants in college.

Mike DeHaan: [5:19] No. I just wore shorts everywhere. I was I was like the the meme that you see of, like, the the kid that always wear shorts in winter, that was actually

Dan Austin: [5:25] me. That was Mike. For

Mike DeHaan: [5:26] sure. And then but then I had this pair of pants I needed to wear this interview, and I had never ironed them because they'd been crumpled in the floor for four years. And so I had to, you know, find one of my female friends that actually had an iron to, like, help me not look stupid. Use

Dan Austin: [5:39] your hair dryer and iron.

Mike DeHaan: [5:41] Pretty much, dude. But I don't think I do any of that stuff anymore. Now they're all just trying to work remote or

Dan Austin: [5:46] do some Yeah. They don't yeah. Yeah. It's a different one sure.

Dylan Koch: [5:49] And then we can

Dan Austin: [5:50] It's changing rapidly.

Dylan Koch: [5:51] I feel like we have to accommodate them or you're not gonna have any employees.

Mike DeHaan: [5:54] Nah, dude. We we just keep hiring, like, older folks. It's true. It's like it's so much better.

Dan Austin: [5:58] Yeah. Honestly. There's like a like a tech gap, but you can get them caught up if they care.

Mike DeHaan: [6:02] If they care. If they care, you

Dan Austin: [6:04] have to get them caught up.

Dylan Koch: [6:04] There was an agent I worked with the other day that I think is a legitimate 85 years old. She said she she was Wow. Been in the industry for fifty two years. And I will tell you Holy cow. The dot loop, like, shenanigans were not up her alley. Oh, man.

Mike DeHaan: [6:21] That's so funny. But, you know, that's unfortunately, what's gonna be keep happening, especially as people don't have any kind of retirement or pension, those kind of things.

Dan Austin: [6:28] Dude, one thing I'll just close the loop on on shit talking old people.

Mike DeHaan: [6:33] I'm not saying anything bad.

Dylan Koch: [6:34] They're great.

Dan Austin: [6:35] Well, Dylan definitely was. Yeah. Respect your elders, bud. No. The one thing I don't get with some of these title companies, because they are usually older ladies that do this, I noticed. It's so weird to me. It doesn't bother me one bit, but it's so strange that I've picked up on, is they will print documents only to scan them in and send them

Mike DeHaan: [6:52] to you. I know. It's just the worst.

Dan Austin: [6:55] You could have just sent the PDF.

Dylan Koch: [6:56] That is hilarious.

Mike DeHaan: [6:57] Dude, we we have borrowers, to be fair, that do that as well that are younger. Yeah. Particularly if they're, like, more blue collar flippers where they'll like be printing their bank statements and then like taking photos of them and sending them to us. I was like, dude.

Dan Austin: [7:09] You could have just print to PDF, dog.

Mike DeHaan: [7:10] Not even like scanning. They're like, they're printing them and then taking pictures to Yeah. Their Like, what are you doing, dude?

Dan Austin: [7:16] Yeah. You see some wild stuff. But

Dylan Koch: [7:18] Hey. I think I know where I wanna start the serious part of this conversation.

Dan Austin: [7:21] Okay. That was serious, by

Dylan Koch: [7:23] the Our mutual friend, previous CCF, and scale member, Tyler

Dan Austin: [7:28] You forgot scale already? Am.

Dylan Koch: [7:30] I like, man. Had to pause. That hurts, dude. He put out a video of how Brandon Turner's fund, their class b investors for a specific Houston property lost a 100% of class b investors At

Mike DeHaan: [7:42] total loss.

Dylan Koch: [7:43] Total loss.

Dan Austin: [7:43] Which is crazy. Yeah. He lost a little chunk there.

Mike DeHaan: [7:45] Did you watch his YouTube video on it?

Dylan Koch: [7:47] I did watch it. I think the biggest thing to put there is, like, one, he was really pissed about, like, the communication aspect. Like, clearly, it was going downhill before, like, they said anything. And Brandon being on podcasting, like, I work an hour a day and, like, wasn't taking it seriously until it was almost like it was too late. And two, I think one of the points we've been made on this podcast is like, if you invest in real estate, the likelihood of going to zero is like, we think is pretty slim to none given especially relative to like buying a business or something, right, that we talked about. But to put your money with the guy with such a well respected brand and an operator, and your $75,000 or a $100,000 goes literal zero, like, is kind of wild to me. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [8:27] Yeah. So it's a different kind of investment, though. Right? And so if you actually own the asset yourself, the chance of it going to zero are relatively low. You know, I mean, you can technically lose enough value that all of your equity goes away and that was just the debt. But that's when you kinda walk away from the property back to the bank kinda thing. When you're an LP investor like you are when you participate in things like his Open Door Fund or where was it Open Door Fund?

Dylan Koch: [8:49] I think it was. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [8:51] You need to understand what that actually means, which is that you are basically making a typically an equity investment in a property. In a singular asset that they're buying, there is a first position lender that is above you. And that money isn't going one to one to equity. It's gonna be going to their company's operating costs in terms of fees. It's gonna be going to renovations that they're doing. It's gonna be going to actual capital expenditure that goes into the property that they anticipate is gonna increase value, but it might not. And what can happen in deals like that where it's a multifamily property, the cap rates get so compressed that the value completely goes away, and there literally is no more equity to capture. And not only that, but there's no way to even if there was equity, there's really not like a buyer pool to be able to capture it. Right? Or, like, your LTV on that thing can be so low that even if they wanted to refinance it or capture the money, they just can't. There's nothing that they can do there.

Dylan Koch: [9:46] I mean, it sounds like they were putting 15 to $20,000 into each unit. And let's say it was running for $50,100 a month. Post renovations was running for, 1,200 a month with concessions. Nice. So not only you're putting good money into a bad asset at that point.

Mike DeHaan: [9:58] Like Yeah. And the thing that's also crazy about this too is I don't know how their deal was structured or the the details of it. But very technically, what could happen is the company that bought this asset, they could go, oh, yeah. Sorry. All the investors lost all their money. Thing got compressed. Most of the equity's gone. But we still own it. So we're just gonna basically hold on to this deal for the next little while and essentially just tell the limited partners by the terms of this agreement that, sorry. It sucks to suck. And so now they have an asset, and they basically just took all your money to do the deal, and they're gonna pay you nothing back as an investor. And this is always one of the issues that I've had with these LP syndications and these limited partner type investments is if you look at what they're realistically gonna pay you, people will go and like, oh, yeah. I get, like, a 12% IRR, 15% IRR. The downside risk of that is immense for what you're getting, honestly. And, like, when we first started getting into GoBundance in these different sort of larger groups that had all these who are syndicating money or that were so heavily invested like that, it never made sense to me because you're giving up complete control over your money and the deal.

Mike DeHaan: [11:01] The downside risk is 100% of your investment plus potentially more because they can also do capital calls. Right? They can do other things that can influence how much money you have to put into it beyond what you originally commit. And the return isn't even that good for that kind of risk versus, like, what we were doing back when we sort of got in the circles back in 2021. We were flipping houses where it's like, we could put $50,000 into this thing and pull $80,000 out in profit six months later. Was like, why would I ever put $50,000 into something like this to hopefully make 10% IRR this year and then maybe get an equity multiple in five years when it can all go away. It just never made sense to me.

Dylan Koch: [11:40] When you're in a growth stage of any business, especially if you're, I don't know, a younger hustler, I guess, it hardly makes sense even the stock market.

Mike DeHaan: [11:49] Totally.

Dylan Koch: [11:49] More makes sense. And we can objectify that. We have return on ad spend numbers. Like every dollar I put in results in $6 out. You really can't beat that kind of return. Yes, it's more active, but still.

Mike DeHaan: [12:00] Yeah. When you have, to your point, when you have a lot of surplus cash, you can explore things like Right? It makes more sense because you're at the phase of your life. You're an investor. What was really dangerous about what Brandon did and that whole thing is he was pitching this to people that loosely qualified as accredited investors. Right? And he's like, oh, you have $250,000 total in liquidity. Why don't you give me half of that? If you lose that, it's, like, catastrophic to you. Versus now, like, we've gotten to a phase now where, Dan, I have accumulated enough liquidity that if I do make an investment like that, it goes away. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. Right? And we have a high enough regular income that we can kinda deal with it. And also too, at our point with the business, I don't really know if I was to put $500,000 into our business, what it would do. Right. I I actually am in a position where I have surplus liquidity. And that's when you should be making these sort of LP investments, not when it's

Dylan Koch: [12:52] like You can pay your taxes.

Mike DeHaan: [12:55] That's why I already did that.

Dylan Koch: [12:56] I I know.

Dan Austin: [12:57] I know. But you're just playing small time, Mike. That's why.

Mike DeHaan: [12:59] I know. Totally, dude. You reach a point where you don't need to play big time anymore if you don't want to. Yeah. Like, if your goal is to be worth a 100,000,000 or a billion dollars, you kinda do.

Dan Austin: [13:08] You gotta keep putting chips on the table. To be a billionaire, you gotta put your chips on the table all the time, multiple times.

Mike DeHaan: [13:12] Absolutely. Especially if you're trying to, like, grow something super similar. Like, the Elon Musk is a good example of this. Yeah. Where if you look at all the sort of situations that he had where he had big exits, we go with the very first one, they had PayPal, they had other ones. Basically, he just took all that money and just rolled it into the next thing.

Dan Austin: [13:28] He was r maxing.

Mike DeHaan: [13:29] He was r maxing for sure. And, you know, and he still still is doing that. Yeah.

Dylan Koch: [13:34] He

Mike DeHaan: [13:34] is. But that's why he's now he's gonna be the first trillionaire is because he's just doubled down so many times, you know, and gotten lucky. But you could also do that and, you know, lose everything.

Dylan Koch: [13:44] Backing up just a minute. What's the criteria for being a credit investor? This hasn't changed in like so long. They should probably change. No.

Mike DeHaan: [13:50] It's a million dollars in net worth or it's your primary.

Dylan Koch: [13:53] Excluding your primary, right? Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [13:55] Excluding your primary or it's $250,000 a year in income as a single person or is it I think it's 400,000 as a couple.

Dan Austin: [14:02] Yeah. For like the last three years or something.

Mike DeHaan: [14:04] For the last three years. Yeah. So it's like these days it's not a lot.

Dan Austin: [14:07] Yeah. It's super easy now.

Dylan Koch: [14:08] I was going to say that compared to like someone who's making that in the year 2000 is a huge difference.

Mike DeHaan: [14:13] Not only that, basically as the operator, you don't really have to verify these things unless you get audited. Yeah. Right? And so what you do is when you have somebody that makes investment, even if you're a five zero six c, which is only for accredited investors, you basically just make the investor sign a form that says, yes, I certify on these things. I pinky promise that I am. Yep. And you're not required to verify anything.

Dylan Koch: [14:37] That's wild to

Dan Austin: [14:37] me. And then you make them a millionaire before you get audited.

Dylan Koch: [14:41] It's only 300,000 if you're married finally and jointly. Let's look at that. It's only

Mike DeHaan: [14:44] 300. That's that's crazy. Yeah. Dude. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [14:47] Dylan, you're finally

Dylan Koch: [14:47] accredited. Finally. Finally.

Mike DeHaan: [14:52] So, you know, it isn't a lot. But the point is is those you can especially if you've owned real estate over the past few years, you can have a million dollar net worth, have a relatively low income, and your cash position can be really low. But you can still make poor decisions like putting a $100,000 into the open door fund and losing it and that's all you have.

Dan Austin: [15:09] Yeah. My advice continues to be the same for anybody like, not you guys obviously, but anybody really trying to scale and grow is like, don't even invest in anything. Not in the stock market. Like, if you wanna do a four zero one ks because you got one, like do your 6% match or whatever match is fine. Like put a $100 in your bank account. Then anything above that, start making some swings and maybe you wanna start doing some investment, get a $100 in your bank account and then get enough money that you can invest into something above that. Because like so many people are like, well, I've got $13,000 in my bank account. What should I put it to? It's like nothing. Leave it. Yeah. Just just leave it there.

Dylan Koch: [15:43] Put it a high yield savings account if you wanna feel better And about

Dan Austin: [15:46] especially when you're just starting out, you know, like when you have a $100, like that feels good. It gives you a mental clarity. And then if you wanna level up and you're around the next guys, having a million dollars in value, not cash, but like in net worth gives you more mental clarity. And you keep leveling up as you grow and scale your ability to invest and your net worth because there's something to be said about having a mind that's free of like being scared. The scarcity idea. Like if you have $13 in your bank account and you're taking 3 and you're putting it in crypto or whatever, like, that is not comfortable, like, living unless unless you're armaxing. And you just this means. But if you're just being a dummy, right, and you don't have any you have no, like, risk sensors in your brain. But for the average person, like, that's gonna be a risky investment whether you know it or not. And it's not you're gonna be able to sleep at night. So get a $100

Mike DeHaan: [16:36] in the bank. Yeah. I mean or or like just the old sort of adage of have a year's worth of your daily your monthly expenses saved up. That gives you a lot of peace of mind.

Dan Austin: [16:47] A year of monthly expense, what you said, Oka.

Mike DeHaan: [16:50] Yeah. That can be year of reserves.

Dan Austin: [16:51] That's right. $6,700,000 for me. That's for you.

Mike DeHaan: [16:56] Damn. You're you're no wonder you're so high strung all the time. You're stressed.

Dan Austin: [16:59] I know you don't got that.

Mike DeHaan: [17:01] Yeah. Yeah. No.

Dan Austin: [17:02] No. I'm not there yet. That'd be

Mike DeHaan: [17:03] wild. Yeah. So that total loss, be cautious. That sucks. And just because someone has a big following on Instagram doesn't mean that

Dan Austin: [17:11] Well, here's the thing. Like, if you if you look, so Brandon Turner, he started that kind of the height of his brand. Smart move on him. He was making so much money. The market was awesome. But if you look at his credentials, what were his credentials? He had like five properties, six properties, you know, whatever he talked about.

Mike DeHaan: [17:27] He was the bigger pockets guy, man.

Dan Austin: [17:29] Those are all the credentials you need. Like, when I look at if and when I choose to invest in other people, I'm truly investing in that person as a good person, which Brandon Perner, I think, passed that test. But then also, are they a good operator of what they do? Have they built their business that is actually something that you're like, oh, damn. That's pretty cool that they've done that.

Mike DeHaan: [17:46] Well, and also, are they actually the operator? Are they just the spokesperson? Yes. Which when he's the person that's bragging about working an hour a day and spending all the time on the beach with his kids, whatever else, no, he's not the operator. No. And he

Dan Austin: [17:57] was very clear about that. He was partnered with whoever. Right? Like would disrupt equity or disrupt capital or whatever it was. Like, yeah. They were the I

Dylan Koch: [18:04] forget his name. Brian something.

Mike DeHaan: [18:05] And there's a lot of people that are like that. You know? Investor girl, Brisk, the other one that you see pop around all over the place where she's out there raising money. But she's not involved in these deals. At least I'm assuming she's not. She's always in, Belize or Italy or wherever the hell she is.

Dan Austin: [18:17] Well, I mean, I can get behind raising a capital with her, but

Dylan Koch: [18:21] I think I don't think someone's out there if you're reading in between the lines because she had an Instagram post that said like, this had a massive deal fall through. And to me, my mind immediately goes to something with AJ Osborne probably got fucked up. But

Dan Austin: [18:34] Oh, right. For sure. Yeah. Because I think she's his main capital raiser.

Dylan Koch: [18:38] Mhmm. But that's speculation.

Mike DeHaan: [18:39] We're just jealous. We always wish that we had our own fundraiser that could bring us a bunch of money so that we could not lose it like these dummies.

Dan Austin: [18:45] Yes. Heck yes.

Mike DeHaan: [18:47] You know, and there are good people. But I do want people that have in space for a while. Like, Drew that was on the show a couple weeks ago. Good example. He has his fund. I invested money with him because I've known Drew for a long time. He's one of, like, five people in the world that I would actually trust with my money. But he's also been an active investor in the space that he's raising money for for, like, a decade since before I've been in the game at all. Yeah. And this fund, he finally did begrudgingly because he realized that he was gonna need to do that in order to continue growing his business. Yeah. So that's what you wanna look for. We're not someone like Brandon or these people.

Dylan Koch: [19:20] Every LP position is an apples to oranges comparison. Like, there's not one that's the same.

Mike DeHaan: [19:24] Yeah. So Nope. So, anyways, Dylan, you're dealing with some evictions. That's fun. Yeah. What does an eviction look like in Ohio? Because Ohio, I guess, politically, they are purple.

Dylan Koch: [19:35] Yeah. I mean, major cities are all blue, but the state itself is red.

Mike DeHaan: [19:39] Isn't that everywhere? Yeah. Probably. At this point.

Dylan Koch: [19:41] But they resell pretty it's more landlord friendly. So here's the the two things. If you use like non renew of lease, it's a thirty day notice. Non payment of rent is a three day notice. But to actually get someone like, you file the eviction, you go to the court system, get them out, is a minimum probably forty five days.

Mike DeHaan: [19:59] That's pretty fast. That's pretty good, man. Yeah.

Dylan Koch: [20:01] Yeah. Forty five to sixty days. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [20:03] About right. That's how it

Mike DeHaan: [20:04] should be. I think to increase rents here is it six months now, Dan?

Dan Austin: [20:08] Yeah. It's like a hundred and eighty days.

Dylan Koch: [20:09] To increase rents? Is that what you said?

Mike DeHaan: [20:11] Mhmm. I talked to my property manager the other day about increasing rents on a property that comes up for renewal at the end of December.

Dylan Koch: [20:18] Wow. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [20:19] Yeah. And so Washington, the way it's set up is like, they're basically getting you out of being able to do six month leases because you have to give them, yeah, one hundred and eighty days of rent increase. Then you have what was the thing with six month leases? Why you basically don't want those? Because essentially you can't kick them out, not kick them out.

Mike DeHaan: [20:36] Yeah. So you can do six months. If they are less than six months, they basically treat them all as month to month leases. And the problem is is the non renewal and like the eviction notice is like stricter in what you

Dan Austin: [20:49] can do. Yeah. It's like a hundred and twenty day notice or something like that that you're not gonna renew it. Yeah. On the six month or less or something like Yeah, something like that. Because they're it defaults to month to month, which if they're month to month, you got to give them one hundred and twenty day notice.

Mike DeHaan: [21:00] Yeah. Because what they're trying to do is get away from these landlords that always go on month to month notices, they would just increase like double or triple like overnight because they could. And then also what was very common is you would have these, Dan's point, these leases that would go to like month to month. The tenant would be ignorant to them. A new person would come and buy the property and then immediately just like jack the rents up super high. Mhmm. Yeah. Mhmm.

Dan Austin: [21:22] I feel like that must have been more of a Seattle thing because we don't really have that over here. You can't jack the rents up that much.

Mike DeHaan: [21:27] Well, you can't. But like, you can't have them expecting to pay it. But I mean, that was honestly kind of our strategy with some of the distressed properties that we would buy back before they made these rules where we had a tenant that we needed out and getting them out was tricky.

Dan Austin: [21:41] I feel like that's different though. I feel like that's different. When a tenant's paying $400 a month and they haven't paid their landlord in like three months even though it rents for $2.

Mike DeHaan: [21:48] Totally. When you look at it logically, it can be different. But when you look at it from the handful of cases that they use to create the rule, they don't look at the rational situation. You guys know how the government works. There's always like the one extreme that basically sets the precedence for everybody Yeah. You know? And so like to Dan's point, that that we ran into that a lot. Is there you would have a really awesome home in a great part of town. The property was kind of a dump. We bought it from the estate of the person that died and the kid wanted to be done with it. And we would go in and the family that was in there was someone that had been there for like a little while. They were massively underpaying on rent and they wanted to stay. And that was totally reasonable. We're like, no. We can't have this house where they're paying $400 a month, especially with how much work needs to be done here. That's not the business model. And so we would either cash for keys or we would increase rent so that they would leave. Or or like we actually have a couple where they we increased the market rent and they said, cool. And they just kept paying and they never left and they're still there.

Dylan Koch: [22:44] Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. We've added that a couple of times. But we bought a four unit property with the intent of redoing all the units, right? So we bought that at the end of March. You have to like, it's a thirty day notice for non renewal lease, all of the tenants were month to month. So we posted a notice the day that we bought it. But in the notice, it says, Hey, we're not going to charge you April rent. And if you're out by the fifteenth of the month, we'll pay you $500 Three of the four, they were just gone and they got their $500 And then the one stayed till the end, but he'd like, we never had to file the eviction. So we do a combination of cash or keys. And in this situation, just because you do feel a little bad that you're like, you know, asking these people to move, we're like, we're not going to charge you the rent because technically, if you wanted to be this person, you could have charged your rent. They wouldn't pay it. You charge them a three day notice, and now they're out even sooner. So it's a give and take in a lot of these scenarios.

Mike DeHaan: [23:32] It's the ethical guidelines, right? Like, you get to choose what that means to you and if and how you wanna act on them. Yep. Because you're you're legally, you can do whatever you want. And depending on who you talk to, some people just go by like, well, legally, can do this, so I'm gonna do it. But then there's also the human factor.

Dylan Koch: [23:48] Totally.

Mike DeHaan: [23:48] You know, which which plays into these things that you have to consider.

Dylan Koch: [23:51] Here. This is a good example that kind of plays in a a similar scenario. We have a it's a would you do this deal question to Mike and Dan.

Dan Austin: [23:58] Well, I know Mike would do any of that right now.

Mike DeHaan: [24:02] Let's just pretend you might. Whenever people have a hypothetical deal, Mike, already know it sucks. Otherwise, you wouldn't be telling me.

Dylan Koch: [24:07] No. No. Here we go. So ARV is, like, 525,000. So class a here in Cincinnati. Right? A good area.

Mike DeHaan: [24:13] Yeah. For that I'm pretty sure that's where, like, the celebrities live where you're based.

Dan Austin: [24:16] Is that, a billion square foot house?

Mike DeHaan: [24:19] Is that is that where, like, all the the NIL, like, Sinsy Basketball players are now?

Dylan Koch: [24:22] They'd be in a neighboring neighborhood. Anyway, everybody's, 525, probably needs, like, $40,000 in rehab. We can buy it for $3.50. So like all in low 4 hundreds, about $100,000 spread after it's all said and done. However, the current seller wants their current tenants to stay in the property at the one year lease and at their current lease rate, you'd lose about $1,000 a month in holding costs.

Mike DeHaan: [24:46] No. I wouldn't do

Dylan Koch: [24:48] it. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [24:49] A, I mean, it's not bad if see a deal, like, honestly, you look at the economics.

Dylan Koch: [24:52] Yeah. When you account for the loss and what you're losing in the VIX.

Dan Austin: [24:55] My guess would be it's like a $60,000 profit potentially. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [24:58] And and you account for for market fluctuations. You account for anything can happen a year. We have seasons. We have tenants do weird shit.

Dylan Koch: [25:06] And if tenants know they're gonna be leaving, they could just tear the place up.

Mike DeHaan: [25:09] They could which we've had happen. Like, that is a big reason. But also to I like especially when I'm buying projects, I like to do it with like, make my decisions with numbers that I know right now. You're expecting things to be exactly the same a year from now. There's so many things that can happen over a twelve month period. And you have the ultimate unpredictable thing, which is the tenant that's in the property that you never know what they're gonna do.

Dylan Koch: [25:33] So the follow-up question is, okay. If it's not $3.50, is there a price? It's like, this is might be worth the squeeze. Right?

Dan Austin: [25:39] Always a price.

Mike DeHaan: [25:39] Yeah. There's always a price. I'd be at probably 300 on this. Then you have a legit $100,000 spread. But then also what I would do is I would close on it. I would go to 10. I'd say, hey. I know that they're gonna let you stay here. I will put you in this other unit that I have that's empty, and I will give you $5,000 to move there. I will, like, give you rent credit for six months. I would incentivize them to leave. And so that way I can make more money on this house instead of having to wait

Dylan Koch: [26:03] it out. Yes. Yep. And there's a lot less variability in what could happen. I agree.

Mike DeHaan: [26:07] That's what I would

Dylan Koch: [26:08] Until they agree.

Dan Austin: [26:08] So to be somewhat of

Mike DeHaan: [26:10] a opposite opinion, I don't

Dan Austin: [26:11] think it's a bad idea to do it just given that it's like given the circumstances, right? I personally want to do that deal because I don't have a portfolio of properties right now that can absorb that because there's a potential loss. But you could probably set it up to make sure your guys obviously have landlord friendly laws. And if the tenants if you can enter if you get the opportunity to interview the tenants and get them locked into a solid lease, right, that makes sense for you that you would normally do and the deal's solid.

Dylan Koch: [26:36] Right. Or you approach them instead of, hey. I have $50,100 a month. You guys wanna say, but it's 2,200 a month. And now you're you know, stuff stuff like that.

Mike DeHaan: [26:43] Right. I feel like you

Dan Austin: [26:43] could work something in there where you could do like a different some sort of longer term loan, you could figure something out. The one caveat to that, just knowing the price points in Cincinnati, I wanna do that deal. I probably wanna do that deal in Spokane because it's tending on the higher price point of the market. And I just don't like to be on the upper third of the price point for that market. So like that to me is actually the more red flag of doing it.

Mike DeHaan: [27:06] I would say it's almost a more dangerous zone than like the higher tier. Like if this was in Spokane, dang, because that $5.25 is like the middle tier. Right? Like at this But

Dan Austin: [27:14] for like the houses that we're like our bread and butter flips, that's

Mike DeHaan: [27:17] on the higher end. That that's getting up there. Because like the $809,100,000 dollar houses will sell pretty fast in town. Yeah. Totally. You know? But like that's 6 to I would say like that, like, 6 to four range is where the super junior is selling in. So I don't know what that looks like in your area.

Dan Austin: [27:29] Yeah. If I'm gonna go in and even if say it's a $400,000 loan, you know, hard money loan, I'm looking at $4,000 a month in carry costs. Know, maybe a little bit less. But when you look at taxes and insurance and all that sort of stuff, you're right around $4. Like, that's a lot of money. Yeah.

Dylan Koch: [27:45] So the plan is to go back and go, go with hopefully a lower purchase price. So Yeah.

Dan Austin: [27:51] And just get it for a price that just makes sense. Yeah. What's their reasoning for the tenants to stay?

Dylan Koch: [27:55] They lived in this house. They moved out. They're family friends. Like, they're not real estate people. They just like accidental gate got into a rental house.

Dan Austin: [28:03] One thing that it's not necessarily the best thing to do, but like I always would tell like our acquisition managers and folks that were in People and Scale, like when the seller has like a weird ask, like I want my cat to continue to live under the house

Dylan Koch: [28:15] for the

Dan Austin: [28:16] next two years, put it in the contract. Because purchase contracts have nothing to do with landlord tenant contracts. You can put anything you want in the purchase contract that says, will come over every afternoon and make sure your tenants are happy. Once the property is sold, that's not binding with the tenant landlord tenant laws. So you can kinda get where you could say that. You could write it in the contract that they'll stay there, but then just go renegotiate with the tenants and be like, hey, I know the, you know, the seller said this, but honestly, what if I gave you like $10 right now to move out? And they're like,

Mike DeHaan: [28:44] Yeah. Yeah, right.

Dan Austin: [28:46] You know what I mean? Yeah. It's honestly probably something you could easily put together.

Dylan Koch: [28:50] Point being though, is like, there are levers you can pull. Don't just give up if like Yeah.

Dan Austin: [28:54] Not an automatic no, is from my perspective. No, it's definitely not.

Mike DeHaan: [28:58] I don't

Dan Austin: [28:58] like that deal structure at all, but like it's not You a

Mike DeHaan: [29:00] have to massage it a little bit.

Dan Austin: [29:02] Well, the

Dylan Koch: [29:02] carrying cost on this big of a loan, like, it's a lot. Right? That's the other part.

Dan Austin: [29:06] So

Mike DeHaan: [29:06] I would say too, from our experience, we would also regularly run into sellers that were sympathetic to the tenants for some reason. They always had a story. More often than not, that tenant sucked. Like, find out that that they were basically taking advantage of the old couple landlord that was gracious to this person that just got out of prison. Exactly. And they were like a piece shit human being. You know? That's common. So common, dude. We would run into that all the time. And they're like, oh, we just can't. You know, he's been down on his luck. We just didn't tell you that part about how he's a child molester. I'm like, You fucking should have told me that. Jesus.

Dylan Koch: [29:45] Yeah. We're trying to work through a probate one right now where like basically this son is trying to take everything that his mom owned, but he has two sisters that technically have right to some of the city. But he's like, estate sailing shit out of the house from like on yard sales that he's not supposed to do. Yeah, it's all it's just a big mess.

Mike DeHaan: [30:02] Nice.

Dylan Koch: [30:03] Yeah. So this is the fun of off market real estate.

Dan Austin: [30:07] Yeah. It's part of the game.

Mike DeHaan: [30:09] Yeah. Yeah. Let's meet you with it, I'll be interested. Mean, chart for everything.

Dylan Koch: [30:14] Might be coming to you with a loan.

Mike DeHaan: [30:16] Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [30:18] We might deny it.

Dylan Koch: [30:19] Yeah. You might. Now that you know the backstory.

Dan Austin: [30:21] Right. Yeah. Should've said all that.

Dylan Koch: [30:22] Yeah. Yeah. Note for the audience. Tell your lenders the least amount of things fucking possible.

Dan Austin: [30:27] Yeah. I know. You know what? You I'm I'm on the back, and I'll find it. I'll sniff it out.

Dylan Koch: [30:32] How much of being a lender is like a private detective, right? You have to figure it.

Dan Austin: [30:36] Yeah, sometimes.

Dylan Koch: [30:36] With the borrowers at least, right?

Dan Austin: [30:38] Yeah. Partially,

Mike DeHaan: [30:39] yes. There is truth to that. So what people don't understand as well with the private lending space, you know, and this is whether you work with like the large company or you work with your local, like, hard money lender. It's completely discretionary, the loans are. So you can be like 100% approved from a credit standpoint, from a deal standpoint, a liquidity standpoint. If you give us some weird vibes, they'll just reject you.

Dylan Koch: [31:00] Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [31:00] Yeah. It's not like a Fannie Freddie loan where you have like all the fair lending laws and all that kind of stuff. That doesn't exist in the private world. And so like if you are kind of oversharing stuff or you have like a weird situation or like we were talking to our new sales crew. Had a whole bunch of new part time sales people start this week. And one of them was like, Yeah, so we have this borrower like, He has a ton of accolades or stuff. He's like, Yeah, he needs some money to basically do some repairs on the property. It's almost a paid off asset. That's fine. And he said, Yeah. And he said that he needs the money because he got put on disability and he's fallen behind on some of his medical bills. I'm like, okay. I don't need to know that. Because now what's gonna happen is go, has how are they actually going to pay for this deal? Is this actually a rental? Or is he just like saying that and he's trying to get like a home loan on it? You know? And there's gonna be all this new scrutiny that comes through because this person overshared, where if and it is a triplex. K? But it's not uncommon for people to own these multifamily properties and to live in them. Right? Even though that's illegal for them to do so. And so, like, as you're going through any of these conversations with lenders or people that you're looking to borrow money from, just be tactful about what you're sharing. And don't get offended if they ask for additional information because you over shared. Because also that's another thing is if you get triggered when people ask you a question, that's also another red flag.

Mike DeHaan: [32:16] Yeah. It's kinda like when you catch a kid that has their hand in the cookie jar and they're denied that they did even though you saw them.

Dylan Koch: [32:22] Yeah. You

Mike DeHaan: [32:23] know? They will reject loans for that. We have had investors reject loans that we were going to fund because the borrower did something that was kind of weird near the end.

Dylan Koch: [32:32] Like they gave me the ick. That's the new terminology. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [32:35] Totally. What'll happen is even you catch somebody out and they'll like have a reason to deny it. And then the conditions that they'll set for it to be funded will be, like, pretty outrageous. So a good example, we had one. The guy said that it was an empty property. Right? Or it was not vacant. The appraiser shows up. There's people. Somebody's living there. Right? And we're like, oh, what is the situation? You know, he said it's vacant. Somebody living there. There's like, you know, stuff in there. And so we bring pride further. And he goes, oh, well, my mom has been just like staying there, but she's gonna move out. Come on guys. The investors aren't stupid. They know your mom's gonna live there for free. The whole premise of a DSCR loan is you have rent to cover The debt service.

Dylan Koch: [33:15] Yep. The name.

Mike DeHaan: [33:16] The debt service coverage ratio. Right? And you're not gonna have that while your mom's living in this house for free. It's not a rental. You basically bought a house for your mom. And so the conditions that we got was, okay. Mom needs to move out. We need to show her having paid rent and a security deposit and a lease on her new property that she's gonna move into. All of her stuff has to be gone. Right? It has to be literally an empty unit, and you have to have a new tenant with a new, like, rent paid and a new security deposit, and they have to be in the process of moving in.

Dylan Koch: [33:46] Well, there there goes that deal.

Mike DeHaan: [33:48] Exactly. That's what happened. He was like, oh, you know what? I'm like, yeah. There's now nine things that need to happen before this loan can even start. And the thing is if at the very beginning, he had just said this, like, my mom's living there right now. She's gonna move out. We could have at least anticipated that before he paid for an appraisal, before he spent a month getting us docs, before he ended up doing all this other stuff. So he was trying to pull one over. And if there's ever any BS, people will catch it and they will call you out

Dylan Koch: [34:13] on it. If it's like a triplex, and people are using the loans to move in, why would they not just use an owner occupied loan unless they've already used that and they don't have another one at their discretion?

Mike DeHaan: [34:24] Easier loan to get technically. You don't have to do like, you don't have to apply your, all your tax returns, all those kind things, especially if you're like a newer entrepreneur.

Dylan Koch: [34:34] Okay. Yeah. That So maybe more fringe cases than I'm thinking.

Mike DeHaan: [34:37] Yeah. Rates can be comparable these days. You know, it's not like it used to be where Fannie Freddie rates were like four and the DSCR rates were like eight and a half. Like when I started buying properties back in 2018. There's a lot of reasons people do it. Honestly, generally too, DSCR loans are cheaper. They're like all the fees and stuff they get patted onto a conventional loan.

Dylan Koch: [34:58] Dude, the conventional loans are fucking. Oh, can I say this real quick? We did a wholesale deal, and this other guy was using a conventional buyer at the back end. And I looked at his settlement statement like his side. Dude paid like $12 in fees for a $250,000 loan.

Mike DeHaan: [35:13] Dude, that sounds about right.

Dylan Koch: [35:14] I'm like, the fuck? Like, that lender just made a killing off of you.

Dan Austin: [35:19] Oh, yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [35:20] In that space though, like, it's kind of like a real estate agent where you're like, how do real estate agents justify what they get paid? And the argument is always like, well, if you look at the amount of work they do to source that, the length of time it takes to close a transaction, most loan officers in the conventional space are commission only. Right? And so they kinda need to do that to justify how much work they do. And especially like just like a real estate agent, those conventional loan officers, they're building those relationships over a very, very long period of time, whether it's with the agents or it's with the borrower. And they're probably only gonna get one, maybe two loans from that borrower over the lifespan of that relationship. Think about capitalism as a whole. Those are the things, the costs, although they don't feel justified, they kinda make sense because you have to look at what the actual lifetime value is of that prospect. It's like, why the hell is furniture so expensive? You know? It's because you're only gonna buy one couch every twenty years. You know? And if they sold them for what the couch was actually worth from like a material standpoint, the company would never make any money.

Dan Austin: [36:15] Mean, I wait till your kid gets older, you'll buy a couple.

Dylan Koch: [36:18] Yeah. Right. But he made he made 5% of the total loan cost just on the loan, which is

Dan Austin: [36:23] That's that's great.

Dylan Koch: [36:24] That's a good day. I mean, to me as a bar from the borrower, though, I know I can get better loans than that.

Dan Austin: [36:30] And this

Dylan Koch: [36:30] guy was like a well qualified borrower. He just like trusted the guy that was his friend.

Mike DeHaan: [36:34] And to your point, ignorance as well, you know, which is a really easy thing to take advantage of on the finance space or in any kind of like specialty, quote unquote, complex transaction space like that, right?

Dylan Koch: [36:47] Well, good for the lender, I guess.

Mike DeHaan: [36:49] Yeah. Cool. Well, you guys have any I just want to round it out with a quick question. Any predictions going into the summer? What are we going to see? We can do market wise, big picture wise. Is the market going to keep heating up like it has?

Dylan Koch: [37:05] I am at a loss for words with the S and P 500 right now. We hit new highs every day.

Mike DeHaan: [37:11] I have one word, Corruption.

Dylan Koch: [37:14] I knew that was gonna be it. I haven't said it before you.

Mike DeHaan: [37:17] Here's the

Dan Austin: [37:17] thing. This is my comment because I am not qualified and I don't invest in the S and P 500 daily and trade and all that sort of stuff. Why is it not possible that corporate spending on AI is enough to inflate the S and P 500? Not inflate, keep it going and holding up the GDP?

Dylan Koch: [37:34] I think it's it's a numbers thing.

Dan Austin: [37:35] What do you mean to numbers?

Dylan Koch: [37:36] So you

Dan Austin: [37:36] don't think it's possible?

Dylan Koch: [37:37] I don't think their CapEx expenditure can be big enough to support GDP for at least an extended period of time. Maybe a short term.

Dan Austin: [37:45] But for, I guess, up till this point, because everybody's like, I I see all this. I don't know why the market's going up, blah blah blah blah. It's like, part of me says, well, like consumer spending is down. Okay? But corporate spending is way up. Everybody's investing in AI. If you're like, I just noticed on Gmail today, they have a new AI button in your Gmail. Right? So it's like things are changing so quickly. People are spending money on it. Right? So there's some expenditure at that level. You have like this gigantic factory Elon's getting ready to build for all these chips and all this sort of stuff. So there's a ton of spending. There's a ton of money because the billionaires continue to be billionaires. Right? And they're taking all of this this consumer spending and tax dollars and putting it in their little satchels. So is it possible up to this point, the reason why the stock market's going up and we're all like, why? Is because of AI and the companies that have all of the wealth are the S and P 500, which is like the bag seven? Yeah. So going into the future, I don't have a comment on that.

Dylan Koch: [38:39] But Do you know what the Buffett yardstick is?

Mike DeHaan: [38:41] The what?

Dylan Koch: [38:42] Buffett yardstick. So Warren Buffett, he has like a metric that's named after him. It's the total start market value over annualized GDP. And he's been on record before saying like, if it gets over like 100%, that's typically not good for the middle class. Today, it's at 230%, which is like an all time high. So like, to me, like, yes, could it still go up in the But short like, it has to come back down with gravity at some point.

Dan Austin: [39:09] Sure. Yeah. Regression to the mean regression kind of idea?

Dylan Koch: [39:13] Yeah. Pretty much. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [39:14] Well, that only happens if people sell. And the thing is most people that hold all the stocks have no reason to sell. So why would they? Just keep going up. Well,

Dan Austin: [39:22] okay. So let's layer in what there's the new Fed chair. When does he start?

Dylan Koch: [39:25] This month, like

Dan Austin: [39:26] a week. This month? Yeah. So there's a lot of discussion about him bringing interest rates down, which would also increase inflation?

Dylan Koch: [39:33] Yeah.

Dan Austin: [39:34] Correct? Wouldn't you think? And what do they call it? Inflation destruct What do they call that when they're basically the debt destruction from inflation? You know what I mean? Where if you jack up inflation, you can destruct debt because the dollars are worth more, but the debts

Dylan Koch: [39:49] It's financial repression is kind of what you're describing. Financial what? Repression. Repression.

Dan Austin: [39:54] Okay. So basically, the idea being is inflation wouldn't be terrible because it would allow The US to pay off some of its fixed debt that they've accumulated over years because the dollar, you got to print more money.

Dylan Koch: [40:04] Yes. Is the whole financial repression playbook. However, who's that good for? It's kind of the thing for. And again, it's good for No, it's good for asset holders. It's not really good for the lower or middle class.

Mike DeHaan: [40:15] Oh,

Dylan Koch: [40:16] yeah. Because if you inflate away your debt, yes, that is a good thing for the nation, but not necessarily that it's And you feel wealthier, but you're

Dan Austin: [40:24] really not any more wealthy. Correct. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [40:26] Right? I mean, if you're

Dan Austin: [40:26] an asset holder, you're wealthier than non asset holders. So from who has money and who doesn't, you are much more wealthy, right? And that's the idea. So I don't really have an opinion right now. I don't see why the market over the summer would do anything major change than what it's been doing. I'll just continue to tell people like, should be buying assets. Whatever that means to you, you know?

Mike DeHaan: [40:48] Yeah. I think it's going to keep going as it is at this point. Yeah. I would say we are beyond the point of reason. And you're kind of at the point where you should just focus on things you can control, accumulate cash, and then invest what you can afford to lose more so than ever. Ditto. Yeah. Cool. Alright. See you guys. Thanks for joining us today. You guys have a great rest of your week. We'll talk to you guys next time. Yeah.

Dylan Koch: [41:10] We'll see you. See you. Glad to be back.

Mike DeHaan: [41:13] This episode is sponsored by Sir Lenzelot LLC, also known as SLA Capital, which, if you didn't know, is Dan and I's private lending company. So, yes, we are sponsoring our own show, but what you're do about it? It is our private lending company that offers hard money and DSCR loans to real estate investors of all types. So you can be a new investor, an experienced investor. You can be buying flips. You can be buying rentals, whatever. We can do everything. And not only that, but the rates that we offer are just as competitive, if not cheaper, than pretty much every other company out there. So whatever big company you've been working with, bring us their term sheets, I guarantee that we can probably beat it. We have the same connections they do. We just don't have all the overhead and middlemen. So if you wanna come and check us out, go to slacapital.com/keys, and I will know that you came from the show. And by seeing that you came from here, when you get the closing, you will save $500 on your first loan with us. So slacapital.com/keys, we would love to fund your next deal. Thanks for listening, everyone. If you want more from us, you can shoot us a follow on Instagram. I am at Mike underscore invest. Dan is at investor man. Dan and Dylan is at Dylan underscore does underscore deals. Choose to follow and send us a DM to let us know what you think of the show.