Where New Real Estate Investors Go Wrong

Mike DeHaan: [0:00] Real quick before we jump into the show, we created the collecting keys podcast to be a real estate investing podcast that is created by real estate operators for real estate operators. And we want operators everywhere to know what it really takes these days to be successful in this business rather than all the fluff that all the other content creators and podcasters out there make. And so one of the challenges with this is that it's challenging to grow because most operators are too busy out there working. Right? And they aren't always learning or actively seeking new learning material. And so if you could please share this show with any fellow operators you know, you know, you can text it to them, you can post it on your socials, you can leave us a good review that you then share somewhere, that would be amazing. But really, whatever, it really helps us continue to get excited to create content, and it will also help you because everyone that you expose us to will get better as a real estate operator and close more deals. So if you could do that for us, it would really mean a ton. And, otherwise, we appreciate you guys, and let's get into this episode.

Dylan Koch: [1:04] So if just wanna start wholesaling right now, unless you're willing to spend several hours on the phone, like, pounding a dialers, the opportunities are a lot harder to come by.

Mike DeHaan: [1:13] What's going on, guys? Welcome to today's episode of the collecting keys real estate investing podcast. I am your host, Mike DeHaan, here with my cohost, Dan Austin and Dylan Cook. And this is the show by real estate operators for real estate operators so you can continue to grow and expand your business in the ever changing economy. Just specify real estate business, but I don't know. We do a lot of general business talk. And it's all the one thing I've come to realize is business isn't that different, especially like small business, depending on what you're doing. It's all the same shit. It's all marketing. It's all sales. It's all like peacocking online and then realizing that you suck at it, so you start to sell an online course instead. You know? That's really what it all comes down to.

Dylan Koch: [1:57] And you gotta be a little psychotic in the head Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [1:59] To try it. Talked about that at the last KeyesCon actually. We said I asked everyone like, who would make more money consistently if you went back to your old w two versus doing this? And every single person raised their hand pretty much. And I'm like, so that's how you know that you're an entrepreneur because you're still here. Yeah. Right?

Dylan Koch: [2:18] But wait until they make more than they would at the w two because Exactly. Then you can then you're unemployable. Totally.

Mike DeHaan: [2:25] Right. Well, well, that's a lot. That that's a fair point. And I would say that was like consistent because there's always the ups and downs. And so amongst the months where you make nothing, you know, on either side of that, you'll make like $80, $100. And then the zero months don't feel good, but you know that you just made like your old salary in a month,

Dan Austin: [2:43] the month before. And so that kinda helps. That's the big money. That's what people are chasing. That's the dragon we're all chasing.

Mike DeHaan: [2:48] Yeah. Exactly. Right? But man, I tell you what though, even after years and years, the bad months still are not fun because they do happen. But it's kinda part of the game.

Dan Austin: [2:59] You know what? Dealing with people is not fun, and this is kind of a sidebar. I was thinking about this, and Mike, you'll you'll understand this. I don't know why this popped in my head, but there's some there's a lot of dirtbags just out there in general. Like in the world, like just period. In the world, in general. And like when you're at like a job or whatever, like it's somewhat masked because people just kinda do whatever they do, whether they're dirtbags or not, it's like stiffer. But when you're dealing with people and partnerships and joint ventures and stuff like that, people, you run into them, it really is detrimental. It just got me thinking, remember that partner we had where we flipped the house? It was actually a Novation deal. And I wasn't licensed in Idaho as a broker, so I couldn't list it. Typically, I'd list it, but he was listed, or he was an agent in Idaho. And, you know, we're the one third each partners on this deal Mhmm. And he put a full commission on the deal, like Yeah. And then wanted a third of the deal. Mind you, him and I agreed like, hey, I'll run all of the listing stuff, I'm lockboxing and I'm doing it all, I will talk to all the like, did 100% of everything, I just legally couldn't put it on the MLS. And And he shoved a a full commission. We didn't see it until the back end. Right? Or like, why would you do that?

Dan Austin: [4:07] Like, that is some shady bullshit. Right? Like, that would be all someone has to do is look at it. Like, why would you do that? Like, that's so stupid. Like, that is bullshit.

Mike DeHaan: [4:16] And he lived in California. It was a virtual thing. He's having Yeah. License in Idaho. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [4:21] Yeah. Exactly. And so it's just like like, that's kind of stuff. You deal with that too. You gotta be conscious about that. And sometimes, run into partnerships, JVs, or just other people like Dylan you talked about like last week or whatever, the dude that tried to go around you. And you just deal with this sort of stuff all the time, where people just straight up lie.

Dylan Koch: [4:36] Yeah. Yeah. I walked a property today from another wholesaler, everybody was like, I don't have any flips going on, this looks promising on paper, I know the area. And then, as you looked at all the pictures, and then I walk it, and I go in the basement, and there's a 50 foot horizontal crack across the foundation that's like bowling.

Mike DeHaan: [4:50] Hell yeah.

Dylan Koch: [4:51] That wasn't disclosed, wasn't another thing. I'm like, this changes everything. Well, you know, it's an expensive fix. And did you really think no one's just gonna see this?

Mike DeHaan: [4:59] Like He hoped. He hoped.

Dylan Koch: [5:01] Yeah. Like, I don't know, man. So I'm just like, I was so I was just you wasted two hours of my time today.

Mike DeHaan: [5:07] Yeah. So That's exactly is, you hope no one's gonna see it. Right? That's always like the super risky thing when you're

Dan Austin: [5:12] working with wholesalers. Shady bullshit. Yeah.

Dylan Koch: [5:14] I guess if he sells it to someone out of state that just like takes his word for it, he could.

Mike DeHaan: [5:18] Which happens, right, to a lot of people. You know? And like there are wholesalers who do stuff like that intentionally as well. Like, there's some of this ignorance, like they don't know it's that big of a deal. Other times, it's shady. I was actually talking to the owner of the hard money company that I worked at for a short time here in Spokane. And he said that there are certain wholesalers here in Spokane that as a new company policy, this hard money lending company will not do loans for people who are buying their deals because there have been enough and this is his own words. He says, buyers faced enough surprises on the deals that they were buying that they were actually resulting in their buyers losing money on these deals.

Dan Austin: [5:56] Wow.

Mike DeHaan: [5:57] Right? And so everything from stuff like foundation issues, to not disclosing like water issues, to zoning stuff, that's a huge one that people rarely get bit without here in Spokane because they're like, here's a house on land. I can subdivide it. It's like, actually can't No. Because the city and the county makes everything really fucking challenging. But new people that don't understand that are trying to get into like this land craze right now. They will just beat up these houses, wholesalers will be like, you could absolutely put five more houses on this five acres, but no, you literally can't do it, like you're not allowed to.

Dan Austin: [6:30] Yeah, it's a straight line to people.

Dylan Koch: [6:31] All this is why the wholesaling honestly gets a bad rep. Because there's a low barrier to entry, and there's scumbags that come in. But I know we've said it on the show, wholesaling, you almost need to know every aspect of the real estate business. So it should be, like in theory, wholesaling should be one of the last things you do until you have experience. Now Totally. Know, or at least you have a coach or someone that could help you through it on the first couple ones. Like everyone's gotta start somewhere, For sure. You're in a rehab, you gotta know sales, you gotta know how to run comps, like, all this stuff.

Mike DeHaan: [6:59] It's actually an interesting point there, Dylan. So what do you think, like, in hindsight looking back, if you are somebody that I would say has a little bit of money, like you have like a basic w two. Let's say, you know, you went to school, you make like a $100 a year, you wanna like get into real estate or do something bigger, what do you think is the way like, what do think they should do first?

Dylan Koch: [7:21] Is the goal to kind of replace your w two, or just flip a couple houses a couple years?

Mike DeHaan: [7:26] Their goal is the message of our show is to make massive income before passive income, but then have the ability to turn it into a business.

Dylan Koch: [7:34] Attend meetups, find someone you jive with, and just really see if they will like vibe.

Mike DeHaan: [7:40] That's a real broad. Let's talk about more stuff like terms like transactions. Do you think they should start buying rental properties, and they should like flip houses, should they try to do bigger stuff? Like Brandon Turner always says, I wish I'd gone bigger sooner because that's how I'm rich now.

Dylan Koch: [7:52] Okay. Side tangent. He actually had his recent podcast, he countered that. He's almost opposite.

Mike DeHaan: [7:57] Did he retract on that?

Dylan Koch: [7:58] No. I'll get to that fucking Yeah. I guess what I'm saying is, I wouldn't start with rentals. I mean, you're making a 100 to $200 a door, okay, maybe buy one, so that way you can kinda learn the ropes a little bit, but I'm probably flipping or maybe wholesaling, but again, you're gonna need the guidance of somebody else. And for an as an example, when I was a pharmacist and I was learning how to do this, I mean I took the extreme, I took a week of vacation. Paid vacation, and I followed a contractor around for like a week. Mhmm. Right? To kinda learn the ropes and stuff. So I don't know if other people are willing to do that, you know, and have that kind of stuff, but I'd probably flip or wholesale, but again, find someone in your market that's doing it.

Dan Austin: [8:34] Yeah. Used to say, I would've used to answer that question with wholesale first, but now I'd probably say flip. Yeah. Because the barrier to entry to wholesaling is a little

Mike DeHaan: [8:41] bit high right now, like

Dan Austin: [8:42] if you're not willing to like, if you're trying to look for the quickest like, quickest bump, right, go and connect with all the wholesalers, spend time buying them coffee, learn how to buy a good deal, learn what that good deal looks like, then go out flip a house, maybe make $30.40 grand, now you have your seed capital Yeah. For your wholesale business.

Mike DeHaan: [8:59] Yeah.

Dylan Koch: [8:59] And you'll actually learn rehab, like accurate rehab costs. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [9:02] You'll which you need to know for wholesaling.

Mike DeHaan: [9:03] Totally. Yeah. And I think I would agree with that now too in hindsight. I think that was one the reasons when we started wholesaling, we were able to get going pretty well and find good deals was both Dan and I had already been in, the rehab world. Dan had done massive rehabs on two rentals that he owned. I'd already been flipping properties. And it's way less scalable to flip houses, way slower process, but you get your education in comping and analyzing deals and learning to estimate rehabs or even just talking to contractors if they're gonna be giving you bids on stuff. Uh-huh. And also too, will say it puts you in the shoes of who's ultimately going to be your buyer if you do wanna get into wholesaling, and you will kinda know the stuff that they wanna see. Right? You will know the big challenges that you face on your flips that you're gonna be able to face. And then at that point, if you're educated and you're still fucking people over, you're just a dirtbag of it. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [9:52] You're just a loser. Right.

Dylan Koch: [9:54] Yeah. Yeah. And to your point, I think flipping would always be easier, because you can buy from wholesaler, whereas if you just wanna start wholesaling right now, unless you're willing to spend several hours on the phone, pounding a dialer or something, this opportunities are a lot harder to come by, as Dan alluded to. So, Yep. Almost rely on someone else for the deal sourcing upfront.

Mike DeHaan: [10:12] I know. It's crazy how much harder that sort stuff is now. When did you start buying real estate, Dylan?

Dylan Koch: [10:16] I bought my first, like a house hack in June 2018.

Mike DeHaan: [10:20] 2018. So we started about similar times. So I bought my first rental then, and then I bought my first flip shortly after that. But back then, I was buying REOs, which I don't even know if that's a thing anymore.

Dan Austin: [10:30] Those don't even exist right now, dude.

Dylan Koch: [10:32] That's really not a thing anymore. Because anything that goes to auction gets bought by an investor, it doesn't stay at the bank.

Mike DeHaan: [10:38] Yeah. For sure. But I I remember there was so many REOs. I was working with an agent that specifically did REOs, we would just go and like walk houses. Mhmm. Like on like a Saturday, we'd walk like 10 houses. It was crazy. And then I ended up buying like one of the worst fucking ones because I'm an idiot. But

Dan Austin: [10:53] You were an idiot. Yeah. I was. I've lost. You've learned.

Dylan Koch: [10:56] Back then.

Mike DeHaan: [10:57] Yeah. And the

Dylan Koch: [10:57] biggest thing is limiting bad debt. Like, I've lost money on deals, you know, and like, I know you guys have too, but just don't put yourself in a position where it's gonna ruin you. Now you need three more years of your w two to get back to even.

Dan Austin: [11:07] Yeah. Yeah. Don't let somebody talking to to do a deal that's shitty. Right? Yeah. That's the risk of going to a wholesaler and like, them lying to you about the Boeing Foundation not being an issue, like, oh, yeah, that's fine, or you being able to subdivide a lot that you can't subdivide, like, you still have to do your research. Right? You still have to learn, educate yourself.

Dylan Koch: [11:23] And the other thing is like, word travels fast. If you get the reputation of someone that sends out shitty deals, it's almost like, it's very hard to overcome that.

Dan Austin: [11:32] If And you get the reputation for buying shitty deals, people will bring you even more. Yeah. You'll have unlimited shitty Everyone

Mike DeHaan: [11:38] knows that buyer. Yeah. And that buyer will buy anything. Have no idea how they make money, but that's not my business. It's not

Dan Austin: [11:44] my problem.

Dylan Koch: [11:44] That was hedge funds a couple years ago.

Mike DeHaan: [11:46] Oh, yeah.

Dan Austin: [11:46] Inevitably, a year later, they aren't buyers anymore.

Mike DeHaan: [11:49] No. No way, dude. Yeah. I mean, like our main buyers that were like that were also our competition here

Dylan Koch: [11:55] in town.

Mike DeHaan: [11:56] We sold them so many deals that we'd be like, okay. Yeah. Sure. And some of them, they would make handover fist money on like stuff that we didn't see here, the market, everything else. And then sure enough, it was the market term, they lost their ass, and they completely folded it.

Dan Austin: [12:08] They Yep. Cool shop.

Dylan Koch: [12:10] I don't know. I think it's three separate business. Wholesaling is a separate business. Flipping is a separate business. Owning rentals is a separate business, as you guys know with your ongoing issues of your portfolio.

Mike DeHaan: [12:19] What a transition. It's the worst fucking business. I'm so over owning rentals. Yeah. We had Dan and I, we had some lovely heavy rains here, and our flood house that we've talked about on the show four times, five times, flooded again. More, maybe. And and Dan has this awesome video of him walking ankle deep in water.

Dan Austin: [12:40] This one I'll say is the worst that we've ever had.

Mike DeHaan: [12:42] Oh, yeah. I'll post a video on my Instagram at mike underscore invest, you can see Dan's sexy feet walking through this ankle deep water in this

Dylan Koch: [12:50] I already took some screenshots. They're gonna have fun.

Dan Austin: [12:53] Dude, worth some money, dude. Those toes, they're they're good toes.

Mike DeHaan: [12:58] Yeah. Shout out Lord of the Rings, dude. You got hot feet.

Dan Austin: [13:00] Oh, yeah, dude. They serve me well.

Mike DeHaan: [13:02] Like, in this one, it's always something else, and it's like, we don't know the cause because it was also freezing cold, so it's like that something burst. Did it come up through the shower because there was so much water coming through the city? We're pretty damn positive it's not from the ground because they already dealt with that and we fixed everything. We have our French drain. We have a new foundation. We have all this shit. I don't know, man. It's just always something.

Dan Austin: [13:26] I think a homeless guy went in there and started a fire.

Dylan Koch: [13:28] It would

Dan Austin: [13:31] don't know. Think that's what Exactly caused

Mike DeHaan: [13:33] what happened. Yeah. It is it is in squatter territory up there by Manitow Park, most dangerous part of Spokane.

Dylan Koch: [13:38] Right. So let me ask you, like like, what'd you guys buy it for? What do you think it's worth today? And like, how much do you think these repairs have cost you? Like, are you still net positive on this thing, even like with the equity build?

Mike DeHaan: [13:49] So we bought it for 289,000. The reason we bought this house is because, we're just talking about the lot subdivision. It has this back lot that is subdividable. We went and did all that. So when we bought it, we actually paid close to retail value for the house.

Dan Austin: [14:05] Although, as is retail because it was a piece of shit. We spent a lot of work money on it. Yeah. We could have flipped it back then and made $50 because that's what our final appraisal was. We could have maybe made more, but it would have been like a $50,000 flip, which should have been a decent little flip.

Mike DeHaan: [14:19] Yeah. But we kept it so we could subdivide the lot, which was a 150,000 on its own. So right now, all in the house with the lots worth about 600. The only reason we haven't sold the lot yet is because the lender is trying to make us do a partial reconveyance. They won't let us do like a partial pay down, but they're basically forcing us to refinance. Mhmm. And we have like a 3% rate. So they're like, if you wanna sell the lot, then you're gonna have to judge them to eight percent, pay our prepayment penalty, it's a DSCR lender, and all this other bullshit.

Dan Austin: [14:46] That was in 2022, right, it was a 5% Yep. Repayment. So it would have been like $20 or something like that. We're like, well, let's just wait because we had just started Airbnb ing and things were fine. Like, it was like, you know, cash flow, we're not in a hurry. We already had it sold once for a 160, a $170,000, whatever ended up being. So it was like, let's just let's just ride this out, and then we've been talking about selling it for a long time though. The problem is is we got like, that not a problem, the reason that extended is we had like a tenant move in for six months, like, then we started doing medium term, it was like, oh, it's fine, we're making a little bit of money every month, and then we had our oil furnace that we didn't replace leak, and that was the initiating thing, and that took like we got into like an argument lawsuit and all this stuff with the mitigation company. Mhmm. And so that was like a six to eight month thing, and I know the insurance company fucked up, because at the end of it, we didn't have rental loss coverage for some reason, and they gave us all of our money from lost rent, so then that kind of like got us back up to par. We just kinda kept having these things happen to where it was like, oh, well, we got a person in there. The reason why it wasn't listed is because we had an Airbnb booking for Mhmm. Like six or eight weeks, and my property manager was like, hey, do you want me to block this out since you're gonna sell? And I was like, nah, who cares if somebody books it for the weekend, it's winter, it's like, what's the chances? Of course, right when we do that, we're about to list it, it's six weeks, so we're just like, oh, let's wait.

Dan Austin: [16:05] And then that same guest was like, by the way, the whole basement's flooded. And my property manager is like, how do they not hear this? How do they not hear six inches of water coming into the house? The whole basement, like the house is floating. Yeah. So

Mike DeHaan: [16:19] I mean, I will say, Dan, even though it sucks that we still own it with that, I'm glad that this happened while we still own it and not like when we were halfway through escrow and like selling the property. Oh my god. That would suck.

Dan Austin: [16:32] Yeah. It's the best of the worst case, and so we just have to work through it. And yeah, I would say the deal is not as pretty today as it was three years ago.

Dylan Koch: [16:40] What I'm hearing though is you still bought it at a great price. So We your downside protection there is Yeah. Is the price that you buy.

Mike DeHaan: [16:47] Yeah. That is the one principle we've always made sure to stand by is we don't buy stuff that, like if a minor thing happens that we're gonna lose.

Dan Austin: [16:56] Mhmm.

Mike DeHaan: [16:56] Like even in the deals that we have lost on, it's been like insane stuff that's happened. Like, we've had one really bad loss in our career where we lost over a $100, but, like, literally, everything that could have gone bad with that deal happened. Right? From the market completely turning over and our exit price being like 20% less than we were expecting when we bought it, to us having to evict the previous homeowners from their own home when they decided to not move out even though they had already bought another house, and they just rented that and decided to be dirtbags to a much larger rehab than we were expecting Mhmm. Partially because they fucked up the house. Like, there was a bunch of stuff that happened in that way. And I mean, hard money cost for fifteen, sixteen months, whatever it was.

Dan Austin: [17:40] The crazy thing about Mike and I's journey is in about eighteen months, we made several millions of dollars. Like, if you actually look at from when we started started wholesaling, we ramped up. It was like a six, eight month ramp up, and then, like, the next year and a half is when we made, like, literally, if you include equity and all the money, brought in, several several million dollars, and then now it's just been defending that.

Mike DeHaan: [18:00] Totally. Honestly.

Dan Austin: [18:01] The last two two and a half years has just been defending it.

Dylan Koch: [18:04] Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, definitely changed. Right? And you guys kinda started, I know, as we talked about, as other people were turning. But what you guys were kinda alluding to there are a couple things. Well, having two parcels on one their one loan has also caused me troubles like trying to dispose deals. Mhmm. So that, you know, that's another thing to consider when you're looking at these. Yep. Because the ones that we're closing tomorrow, I wanted one, wanted nothing to do with the other. But they have to come as a package, unless you make the seller refinance out of them, which he's not gonna do.

Mike DeHaan: [18:31] Yeah. Right. But Yeah. You know, and a big part of this challenge right now too is just the way the insurance is handling everything. We were kinda talking about this before the show, insurance has touched a racket everywhere. But like here now with this water situation, they now have all these rules around, like, what they will insure you for when it comes to water. Like, if it came directly from the ground, they won't do that. Basically, it has to from, a burst pipe or, something else. It's, like, wide ranging. And it's like and even then, if it is from a burst pipe, it's only up to like a small amount of money. It's like 5 or $10,000.

Dan Austin: [19:02] That's if it comes through the sewer. Right?

Mike DeHaan: [19:04] It comes through the sewer. Sorry.

Dan Austin: [19:05] A drain backup.

Mike DeHaan: [19:06] Drain.

Dan Austin: [19:06] Yeah. $5,000 in repair. If it's a burst pipe, they'll cover it all. And then if it's groundwater, they won't cover it, and there's all yeah. There's nothing you can do, it's like it's a racket. Mean, the amount of money you spend on insurance, and then when you actually file a claim, it's always like, well, you sure you wanna do this? Like, that your our insurance agent's always like, well, should talk about this before you file. It's like, why?

Dylan Koch: [19:25] Because your premiums are gonna go up, though it's not your freaking fault.

Mike DeHaan: [19:28] I know.

Dan Austin: [19:29] I know, exactly, and so it's just kinda wild, you pay for it regardless, because I mean think about how many times a person files an insurance claim in their life, like very rare. Like the homeowners claim, like I've done one, you know what I mean? And that

Mike DeHaan: [19:40] was on the same property.

Dan Austin: [19:42] And so it's like crazy.

Dylan Koch: [19:43] Yeah. When I was buying actually, I bought my 12 unit package, the property had an insurance claim before I bought it, and that hurt me as the buyer. Mhmm. Yeah. Which I was like, doesn't make any sense. I was like, so they like, they travel with the life of the property almost.

Dan Austin: [19:58] I will say this, insurance companies and like life insurance companies, they know exactly what they're doing, and they wouldn't be in the business if they didn't make more money on you given the risks. Totally.

Dylan Koch: [20:08] Yes.

Dan Austin: [20:08] They know when you're gonna die, so when you get life insurance, they are making more money off of you and the average, you know, customer of their than than they're gonna pay out. And the same thing goes for like hazard insurance on your home and homeowners insurance and all that stuff.

Dylan Koch: [20:20] It's all actuarial math basically.

Mike DeHaan: [20:23] At least with things like life insurance though, right, is it's going off of odds of your life ending. And it is one of those things that if you do die, the amount of money that you get actually is like significant, right? You know, with my my I have a term life insurance policy that I pay $700 a year for. And if I it'll be good until whenever I can't use term anymore. It's like age 60. And if I die in that period of time, it's like $3,000,000 that'll go to my wife. Right? That's very significant for what I'm putting into it. The problem with like home insurance and property insurance is you're paying like $2,000 a year Yeah. For nothing apparently. And then as soon as you have an issue like a sewer backpack, oh, we'll only give you $5.

Dan Austin: [21:04] Yeah. Oh, and they won't fix what caused it. They won't fix what caused it by the way.

Mike DeHaan: [21:07] Yeah. They'll just fix like the renovation. Yeah. It's it's a freaking joke.

Dan Austin: [21:11] And if your roof gets blown off your house and say it was a thirty year roof and you're on year 25, they're gonna give you five years worth of a roof.

Dylan Koch: [21:18] Yeah.

Dan Austin: [21:18] It's fucking crazy, dude.

Dylan Koch: [21:21] Yeah. But yeah, that shit is what pisses me off, man. Yeah. They have so many exceptions, or if they like Like, honestly, if you feel like a fire, and you're like, oh, this was caused because you smoked in the house, or whatever. They'll try to find something to put the blame not on them, I so they don't have to pay out the

Mike DeHaan: [21:37] don't know like fundamentals of that industry, but I I imagine it has to be getting close to like collapsing with something going on.

Dan Austin: [21:46] I think Florida is killing us here. We need to cut Florida off The US and just let them have their own self insurance down there.

Dylan Koch: [21:52] Yeah. California too. No, I think California state based on most of their insurance.

Mike DeHaan: [21:56] Yeah. Well, they definitely have

Dan Austin: [21:57] to, right? Because it's cal people want insure Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Should get rid of kind of the extremes.

Dylan Koch: [22:01] Well, I mean, Warren Buffett, right, his main thing is he he bought a take of GEICO forever ago, and all he does is invest the float of GEICO, so all that money that sits around there is like how he deploys his money.

Dan Austin: [22:13] Oh, really? I didn't Yeah. Know

Dylan Koch: [22:15] So I mean, like, it's all like the float based money that he's investing. That was his best rate of his investing life was investing in GEICO early. What do

Mike DeHaan: [22:22] you mean by the float? I read I read the Berkshire Hathaway notes around how much you've put into GEICO. What does that float mean?

Dylan Koch: [22:29] What I mean by float is like, let's say you're bringing in a $100,000,000 just from people paying in premiums every year, but you only your business expenses are only 50,000,000, the float is the difference. It's basically like your profit of what insurance companies. Float is their profit, and they decide where to invest that money.

Mike DeHaan: [22:45] So, so they give that to him to invest or he invests that in GEICO?

Dylan Koch: [22:49] He is a direct owner of GEICO, so he can kinda do whatever he wants with it. Interesting.

Dan Austin: [22:53] Does he own a 100% of it now?

Dylan Koch: [22:55] I don't know if it's a 100, but Okay. It's to where he has like controlling stake. Yeah. He can

Dan Austin: [23:00] do what he wants.

Mike DeHaan: [23:01] Hey. So you've heard us mention our scale community before, and I don't have a lot of time, so here are the quick highlights. In scale, you get all of our processes and systems that we use to do about a 150 deals every single year. You also get a community of investors that are verified crushing it in their markets. Otherwise, they wouldn't even be members. And that way, you don't have to waste time with nonstarters like you find in other groups. You also get preferred relationships with marketing companies and even lenders that will give you 100% financing. If you just heard all that and said, nah. I don't really need it. That's not gonna help me. I don't know what to tell you. You're lying to yourself because all those things are guaranteed to help you explode your business and buy more deals next year. So go to collectingkeys.com/scale, and let's see if you qualify. Traditionally, a lot of insurance companies I don't if it was just life insurance. I would assume, like, all insurance companies do this. A lot of their reserve capital was put in things like commercial real estate, Cause that was always regarded as like the safest of investments. Mhmm. But now that's been tanking. There has to be a correlation between that and all the chicanery with insurance right now. Right?

Mike DeHaan: [24:07] The fact that they're like reserve assets are all collapsing.

Dylan Koch: [24:10] Actually, that's a good point, Mike. I've thought about that. Yeah. Well, their projected returns are lower than what they had, you know, they're doing, then like, have to make up this money somewhere.

Mike DeHaan: [24:20] And not only if their actual projected returns lower, I'm sure there's a lot of them that are losing horribly.

Dan Austin: [24:24] Yeah. Well, in those those smaller companies that are in those disaster areas. It's like even where we're at now, like, Mike, like, if everybody experienced the same issue and an inch one insurance company is, like, really prominent here, they're gonna have deal with all this shit. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's like and we do have that. Like, we've had windstorms, we've had rainstorms, we have hailstorms where an entire area of a town gets plastered, dude.

Dylan Koch: [24:47] And Mhmm.

Dan Austin: [24:47] They pay out.

Dylan Koch: [24:49] A lot of this too is was a byproduct of like the ZERP. Right? The zero interest rate policy? Because a lot of these pension funds, insurance companies, endowments, they would buy government bonds, but when they're yielding 2%, we're like, okay, well now we can't meet our requirements of what we need to pay out to the teachers unions, whatever it is. So they go out further on the risk curve, private equity, commercial real estate, this kind of stuff. This is like where that term moral hazard comes from in the investing community, because they're reaching for returns. Right? Yeah. It's a scary thing when it starts going the other way.

Dan Austin: [25:19] Yeah. Sucks.

Mike DeHaan: [25:21] There's been a lot of stuff like that recently. I know we if you guys haven't seen this by the time this podcast comes out, there's been a lot of talk going around the real estate world around the FHA bubble. And the fact that this is finally coming to fruition. Mhmm. I'm surprised this lasted this long. And so you guys go and you look up like the FHA real estate bubble. Anyone that was in the business in, like, 2020 and 2021 saw this bullshit. Where people where you had agents and you had loan brokers who made a percentage of the purchase price of the property, a percentage of the loan size as their commission. And so what they would do is they would get with an FHA borrower, and they would go and they would find a house, and they would say, how much are you approved for? 230,000? Cool. Well, this house, it's only on the market for 200. We're gonna offer 230,000 because that's gonna be the most competitive offer.

Dan Austin: [26:13] Mhmm.

Mike DeHaan: [26:13] Right? And they would just do it to maximize how much the agent and the loan broker were making. And with the FHA loans, you'd only have to put three and a half percent down. So you'd have them grossly overpaying for the property, bringing in a very little bit amount of money. And the problem is is in order to qualify for that, the different, like, income requirements and everything were much much smaller than a traditional loan. And so you have these people that were majorly over leveraged. And there's one instance in particular, we had this flip, and it the house was like a dump, and it was still occupied, and we put it on the market purely because we were trying to get the tenants out. And the like, we've had a kinda like a dream price, we weren't expecting to sell it for that. We get an offer for it almost right away, if it was like $3,040,000 dollars over asking price. No.

Dan Austin: [26:57] It was more than that. It was like, yeah, yeah. It would probably be $50.60 over asking. It was not, it was like stupid, and we were already listed it for a stupid price.

Mike DeHaan: [27:05] It was disgusting.

Dan Austin: [27:05] Like full retail, and it hadn't been fixed up.

Mike DeHaan: [27:08] It hadn't been fixed up, and there was like no other offer, they just offered us this, and the only condition was the property had to be vacant. So it was a ninety day closing, we got tenants out, they closed on it, and the you know, this house was a disaster. The only thing we had to do was go and like scrape the paint off of like the roof.

Dylan Koch: [27:25] Oh my god. I just had one of those.

Dan Austin: [27:27] The chipped paint. Yeah. The chipped paint.

Mike DeHaan: [27:29] The chipped paint because that's the issue. And then it's closing day and we get a call and the closer is like, hey, so in order to meet the debt to income requirements, the buyer needs you to pay off, it was like a $47 credit card bill. They didn't have enough money to pay it, so we needed to credit them $47 to sell them this house, which we made like $90 on. Yeah. I'm like, this is the dumbest thing. They should not be buying this shithole house if they don't have $50.

Dan Austin: [27:56] Such a gross No.

Dylan Koch: [27:57] A 100%.

Mike DeHaan: [27:57] I mean, then Like, it's insane. Skip that for the

Dylan Koch: [28:01] fucking intro because that was yeah.

Dan Austin: [28:02] Right. Yeah. The the FHA buyers, they notoriously buy the shittiest houses because that's all they can afford. That's not their fault. It's just what it is. I mean, that same time frame I was listing and selling houses that I was like, don't buy this. Like, you're a young couple with a baby, and that hot water tank is about to fucking go, and that's $1,500, and that's like

Dylan Koch: [28:21] And at a buyer's agent, Dan, that's what you're supposed to do, but that's what 90% of them don't

Mike DeHaan: [28:25] know. Totally.

Dan Austin: [28:26] No. Because they're gonna come in and say, offer $20 over asking, because that's how we'll be competitive, or or 50 or 60, which is all the FHA FHA and VA offers we were getting at that time were all which yeah. Because they're the risky buyers. Right? They might drop out, and so that's what people were why people were doing that. But like, it was crazy, man, to be honest.

Dylan Koch: [28:45] Well, I mean, to put context around this, I know we we talked about this in the Slack channel a little bit. There was a report that came out, basically, straight from a FHA, like from the source. And for conventional, I think the DTI is like 30 to 35%, for FHA it's 43%. Right? So you can see from the start that they're already a little thinner. But this says, in 2007, thirty five percent of new FHA borrowers had a debt to income ratios above the 43% threshold. In 2020, fifty four percent did. And then now, as of like 2024, about sixty four percent FHA borrowers last year exceeded the 43% threshold.

Mike DeHaan: [29:21] So 64%? So six out

Dylan Koch: [29:24] of 10, more than six out of 10 borrowers are above the threshold, and they're still getting approved. 50% of their income is going towards a housing payment.

Dan Austin: [29:31] Or more or more, is that the idea? Anything above, that's this counts anything up, say, 44% above. Correct.

Mike DeHaan: [29:38] Wow. Yeah. Well, and not only that, but in the same article, Dylan, it's a Wall Street Journal article, You talk about well, I guess not you. They talk about how the FHA was giving programs to note servicing companies Yeah. To keep defaulting FHA borrowers current by basically taking the unpaid payments and just adding them onto the end so that they would eventually have to pay it.

Dan Austin: [30:01] But the the servicers would get like a portion of that?

Mike DeHaan: [30:04] Yeah. They were getting kickbacks.

Dan Austin: [30:06] That's crazy. See, that's like one of those hidden inflationary things too. You're like, what the fuck was that for?

Dylan Koch: [30:10] Absolutely, dude.

Mike DeHaan: [30:11] You know what I mean? And maybe it

Dan Austin: [30:12] was to keep maybe it was to keep people out of default, and I see there's like some some reasoning, but man, that's stupid.

Dylan Koch: [30:17] The FHA made 556,841, quote unquote, incentive payments to servicers over the past year to prevent foreclosures, nearly as many as the new mortgages it issued.

Dan Austin: [30:29] Ain't that crazy? That's nuts. And here's the thing though, I don't know how it's been in Cincinnati, but I can tell you here in Washington where we're at in Spokane County, like, we still haven't seen a foreclosure auction, like like a foreclosure auction, like, in at the county court steps since COVID. Like, you can't I mean, there has been one, but, like, you can't, like, buy it. Like, it just doesn't if they don't exist, there's not enough to to exist.

Mike DeHaan: [30:50] Or there will be, like, one or two, like, houses, like, maybe a quarter. But otherwise, you're right completely right, Dan. Because what happens is they will be listed to go to auction, and then all of a sudden, they're all just canceled, but they're all forgiven, like, the day of the auction. Mhmm. It's been going on for years, for, like, five years now.

Dylan Koch: [31:05] If you look at, like, the number of foreclosures, like, pre 2008, not even, like, during the bubble of 2008, but pre 2008, the median level was probably 50% higher than it is today.

Dan Austin: [31:15] Oh, yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [31:16] Yeah. Crazy. Yeah, wouldn't say

Dan Austin: [31:17] it's because the borrowers are in any stronger position.

Dylan Koch: [31:21] Yeah. No. And the last thing I wanna say from this article, of the 52,000 FFJ loans last year that went seriously delinquent within the first year, meaning I think that's three months of missed payments, only nine resulted in a foreclosure.

Dan Austin: [31:34] Like a single like nine what? Nine. Just just nine.

Dylan Koch: [31:37] Just nine.

Dan Austin: [31:37] That's in the whole country? That's a whole country? Like, God. You know someone's fucking with those numbers. Right. You know, like how did how did only nine, you know, out of that's such a low percentage, you know that they're yeah, they're definitely doing something on the back end here. I wanna get paid too. How are we getting paid?

Mike DeHaan: [31:54] It's wonky. And like there's no way that that gets resolved without the creditors losing money.

Dylan Koch: [32:00] Someone has to lose. Right? Right.

Mike DeHaan: [32:01] Like someone has to lose. And the FHA people, they're not gonna lose. They don't have any fucking money. Yeah. Right? They already they don't already don't have any equity because they bought these houses and things already depreciated. Yeah. Mean

Dylan Koch: [32:11] It's not the servicer either. The servicer doesn't keep them on the books. Not the portfolio lenders. They pack them much and send them off to the government. So the government's gonna take the loss.

Dan Austin: [32:18] Who's getting them more the mortgage back security, right? And then Yeah. Yeah. Oh, jeez.

Mike DeHaan: [32:22] Man, how long until Doge comes knocking for that money, dude? And just like, hey

Dan Austin: [32:26] Where's our money?

Mike DeHaan: [32:27] Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna start selling all your houses for you. You better get out.

Dan Austin: [32:31] Hell, yeah, dude. They're gonna start having some Tesla houses.

Mike DeHaan: [32:34] That's why Elon's getting the robots going. They're gonna have, like, foreclosure robots. They're gonna come and, like, rough people up.

Dan Austin: [32:41] They no. They're gonna have the robots live in the houses, dude. They're gonna kick people out and move them in.

Mike DeHaan: [32:45] Yeah. Right.

Dan Austin: [32:46] Charging stations for robots.

Mike DeHaan: [32:47] Yeah. Now we need somewhere for all the all the Russian immigrants to to come stay because that's who we accept now.

Dylan Koch: [32:52] I don't know how that gets resolved though, guys, to be honest with you. It's nuts, dude.

Mike DeHaan: [32:56] It doesn't without something catastrophic.

Dan Austin: [32:59] Yeah. Yeah. The government's gonna have to do something, step in and and make some changes. The taxpayer ultimately is gonna be the one that puts the bill on any money that has to get put in there.

Dylan Koch: [33:10] Yeah. But I like I'm trying to think, okay, even if you offer relief or something. Yeah. I mean, then I guess it would ultimately trickle down Print money. Via inflation. But I don't know. It's kind of a rock and a hard place.

Mike DeHaan: [33:22] Maybe, I wanna know how much actual money this entails. Like, what is the like dollar amount? Because 52,000, you know, FHA loans last year went seriously delinquent. Right? Even if like, let's say it's an average home price of $200,000, how much money is that?

Dan Austin: [33:40] It says 1.04 e 10 on my calculator. Oh, I my gotta turn it sideways.

Dylan Koch: [33:46] No, mean, I would more do this. I would take the 557,000 number, because that was the incentive payments, and it says, nearly as many as the new mortgages issued. So 500,000 new issued, times 200,000, I mean, that's that's a lot of zeros.

Dan Austin: [34:00] That's billions. That's billions.

Mike DeHaan: [34:02] Yeah. 500,000 times 200,000. Yeah, that's gonna be hundreds of billions.

Dan Austin: [34:05] Billions b.

Mike DeHaan: [34:06] Yeah. That's like, is that a trillion dollars? Pretty close.

Dylan Koch: [34:09] Then Mhmm. Zeros.

Mike DeHaan: [34:11] This is 12. So it's like hundreds of billions. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [34:14] It's a lot of money, which is Yeah. You know, Trump change really. I mean, if so here's the I guess here goes back to the conversation about the 0% treasury bond. Is that a good way to raise money for something like this, because this is exactly what you're doing it for. Mhmm. It's for a good set of printing money, you're essentially raising it through this 0% debt.

Dylan Koch: [34:34] My gut answer, I think I'd have to sit with it for a while though, would be yes. I mean, because Yeah. If you can get someone else to pay for your debt, it's the whole premise of why we have rental properties in the first place, someone else is paying down your debt. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [34:45] If you can get 0% debt, right, to go and basically pay off all these shitty mortgage backed securities, whether that's through relief, or doing something to they they have to do something.

Dylan Koch: [34:57] High level, the government's income is the GDP, which is basically just tax receipts. Right? That's really all the money they bring in is is taxes that we all pay, minus what they spend, and right now we're multi trillion dollar deficits a year, and the three there are like three categories that take up like 75% of that like total thing. It's like defense, Medicare, Medicaid, and I think the interest payment. I think it's the last one. So I guess the easiest lever to pull is the interest payment part. Right? Because you're not gonna cut people's like Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, defense is not gonna happen. So like, that's I guess the avenue like, that they would go towards the fir like first and quickest.

Dan Austin: [35:40] Yeah. They they would have to. Right? And I think that's also plays plays kind of into what is the best way to get the economy started, and they real estate is kind of the driving factor of that, like, do you get construction jobs going? How do you get real estate moving? You know, when you see these new bills coming in depending on when the presidents come in, a lot of times it's infrastructure bills. Yeah. Right? Like that's because they wanna get construction jobs going, and if you can build infrastructure for people to build homes and businesses, like that's it makes sense. Right? But like I think the opposite is happening just right now with the whole Doge concept is they're trying to reduce government spending. So I don't know that Trump is going to be considered a infrastructure guy. Right? That it just doesn't seem maybe he is, maybe he has some, I don't know, his whole budget plan.

Dylan Koch: [36:24] This is very hard to do that from a top down level. Right? We don't need international highways anymore. Right? Like, so like to do something like that, I think more has to be bottom up.

Dan Austin: [36:32] Well, you have to do it locally. You have to take federal funding and do something locally. They've done that through like the power grid enhancements, and the Biden administration tried to do that through Internet, but they could never get Internet anywhere. So that was a big flop. Right? The idea being, if you can get high speed Internet to rural areas, that will allow people to, you know, grow businesses there.

Dylan Koch: [36:50] Yeah. Now they're just Starlink.

Dan Austin: [36:51] Yeah. Now, yeah. Now they just have Starlink.

Dylan Koch: [36:53] Kind of tied to that though, there is do you guys know Tommy Haras? I'll name drop him. He's a decent sized operator in the Columbus market. Okay. Completes with our friends Josh and Tiffany. But he dropped actually a good video the other day of like, how many people get paid during the real estate transaction. Oh And they tallied up, it was like 40 people. From insurance, to agents, to contractors, to title people, know, the whole nine yards. And that's why real estate is such a big part of the economy, is for how many different sectors go through one transaction. Which can be frustrating if you're relying on other people in this business, but it's why it's such a big driver of The US. Yeah. Yeah. It's huge.

Mike DeHaan: [37:30] I mean, this whole situation with FHA is tough though too, because I don't even know if there's an opportunity here for investors. Right? Because it's not like you can buy these properties subject to, right, they're all underwater unless you're one of those dorks that's happy buying one with no equity.

Dylan Koch: [37:45] Yeah.

Dan Austin: [37:45] They're all probably they're all super high leverage, right? So say the house is worth 300,000, their leverage on it is probably two seventy five.

Dylan Koch: [37:52] Mhmm. I mean, anecdotally, I, you know, track the foreclosures and even my stupid PPL leads that are coming in. So many of them. Well, one, foreclosures are going up and they're all 2021 or newer loans that were issued. And two, the PPL ones are the same thing, like, hey, I'm looking to probably sell this. It's too much house or whatever. That sucks, bro. Yeah. It's not much you can do. Like, you can try sub two if they have a good rate, but then Mhmm. They still don't really cash flow that well, and is that worth it? Maybe not.

Mike DeHaan: [38:16] No. And the and the thing is they can't accept your cash offer. They also can't sell it on the market because they don't have 7% equity with the way the market's turned over to pay cover the cost he sells.

Dylan Koch: [38:27] Oh, no. Here's a good one. Talked to a seller. They bought a new build in in 2022, and they basically were never told or never calculated that when the house is built, the property taxes are gonna go from land value to the real estate value.

Dan Austin: [38:39] Oh my gosh. That's crazy.

Mike DeHaan: [38:41] That's my whole neighborhood, dude.

Dylan Koch: [38:42] Bro, their taxes went up like $600 a month. Mhmm. And so they're like, I can no longer afford to live here. I was like, okay, one, you should have known that. Right? Like, sorry that kinda sucks, but wonder how many people that's happening to.

Mike DeHaan: [38:55] Lot. So I I live in a neighborhood where the average home price is 700 to 900,000. Okay? Higher end for Spokane. And literally, all these people bought their house in the same time. They're all new builds. And when they were getting approved for loans, it was 2021, super low interest rates, debt to income was whatever. People were stretching their budgets to live into this live in this neighborhood. It's like the best school district.

Dan Austin: [39:19] This is near Mike DeHaan.

Mike DeHaan: [39:21] It's near me. Right? They they heard that I was here, and everyone came flocking. But we got our property, like, our first property assessments two years ago. And on my house, property increased 700 a month. Property taxes did. Everyone else is getting similar stuff. Literally, half the neighborhood sold, turned over for losses. Like, I've gone through and I've done the math. I'm like, they sold it for the same amount of money they bought it for. And they hired a three percent agent from Keller Williams. They lost their ass on that house. That was

Dan Austin: [39:49] a weird time. I mean, I remember when Mike bought his house I mean, Mike freaking lucked out in a way because Oh, yeah. He bought your house while it was being built, and the market hadn't taken off quite yet. And within the time your house was built, it freaking skyrocketed.

Dylan Koch: [40:02] I had natural equity.

Mike DeHaan: [40:03] Oh, yeah, dude. I bought it for $7.50. It appraised for $8.80 when we closed.

Dan Austin: [40:07] Yeah. Like six months later. Mhmm.

Mike DeHaan: [40:09] Know, and

Dan Austin: [40:09] it only went up from there, and so then people were buying after that, right? And so, yeah, they're definitely losing money.

Dylan Koch: [40:14] Yeah. I guess, is that the responsibility of the lender or your agent, if you're even working with one, like tell you that that's gonna happen?

Dan Austin: [40:20] Your agent should educate your agent and your lender both should educate you on that. Like I've worked with both types that would and wouldn't.

Mike DeHaan: [40:27] But that's what we're talking about before, they only get paid if your transaction closes right now. What happens in two to three years, a, they can't predict it, b, they don't care because they're no longer involved with you. You know, if anything, they actually want you to have to sell because you're gonna call the same agent, and you're gonna go to the same loan guy to get another loan or another deal that you make more money.

Dylan Koch: [40:45] I wanna be pissed.

Dan Austin: [40:47] Here's here's a good closing argument to tease maybe our next conversation and next episode is property taxes, and should they or should they not exist? Because

Dylan Koch: [40:55] We can talk about that.

Dan Austin: [40:56] I've thought about that, like, how bad that is for, like, our elderly people and all that stuff. Like, you're not basically in America, you do not have the freedom to own your own property. It's interesting.

Mike DeHaan: [41:07] Well, is something that I will say places like California, I think have done well, where they have like the inheritance thing with taxes where until unless you sell the house, it doesn't increase the taxes.

Dan Austin: [41:18] They've done a good job with that. You're right.

Mike DeHaan: [41:20] You know? And so so you have, like, these legacy homes that people have lived in for many generations that they're still paying taxes on from, like, the sixties or seventies.

Dan Austin: [41:28] They've gotten rid of that piece where you can't go from generation to generation anymore, but I think as long as you still own it, it stays the same. That this like, last year, I think they got rid of that.

Dylan Koch: [41:37] I'm sure there's, like, people work around that with trusts and all that kind

Mike DeHaan: [41:40] of stuff too.

Dan Austin: [41:41] That's well, that's what they were all doing. They live on in Malibu on the on the ocean for like $700 a year. They the government definitely is I don't know the ro rules, but we should pull that up for next for next episode. But just the idea of like, it's an interesting situation because as as you age, like, so like, say you have a fixed income, the only thing that goes up, like taxes go up, like social security doesn't keep up enough, and they don't pay you enough, and if you're on a four zero one k fixed income, plus maybe a pension or something like that, those don't typically come with cost of living adjustments. Yeah. And so it's an interesting concept, and we've talked about how it's really killed cash flow in rental properties.

Dylan Koch: [42:17] Mhmm.

Dan Austin: [42:17] It's an interesting thing. You've gotta you've gotta have it though, that tax revenue is very important for infrastructure, for schools, for all the stuff, but it's like how else can you get it?

Mike DeHaan: [42:25] Yeah. Well, then then cities do fuckery too. So like in my hometown of Bozeman, Montana, there's a lot of neighborhoods that are like really close to like kind of the main street area. When it used to be like a cattle town, that was like a viable thing. You know? You could like walk to the shops and do whatever. Now it's where all the tourists wanna hang out, so there's bars and restaurants and everything else. Right? So what they did is they went around to try and curb all the Airbnbs. They basically put a hospitality tax

Dan Austin: [42:50] Oh.

Mike DeHaan: [42:50] On all of these neighborhoods directly around Main Street. Here's the problem. There's also like thousands of people that fucking live there.

Dan Austin: [42:56] Yeah. Just like old people that have lived there forever and yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [42:59] The old people that have lived there, yeah, since like the sixties Get pushed

Dan Austin: [43:02] out of their house.

Mike DeHaan: [43:03] Yeah. And they're like, cool. Now you have to pay $60 a year in hospitality tax Yeah. For your house that you live in? That's ridiculous.

Dylan Koch: [43:10] There has to be a better way to do that. Like, you can see if it's an owner occupant or not. Like

Mike DeHaan: [43:14] I know. I know. But of course, they don't think that way. But, yeah, that'll be interesting conversation. That'll be good too. Because next week, we have Greg Helbeck coming to join us to be our fourth member for the show. If you guys don't know Greg, he has another show called Real Estate Step by Step, which I was a guest on a little while back. He's a he's a real estate veteran and a super fun guy. I got to hang out with him in Parkside a couple weeks ago, and he will match our vibe very well. Guys, he lives in Seattle, but he's got a strong New York accent, New York personality.

Dan Austin: [43:44] Beautiful. I'm sure that fits in well there.

Mike DeHaan: [43:46] Oh, yeah. But yeah. Right?

Dylan Koch: [43:48] He's a good follow on Instagram for the audience.

Mike DeHaan: [43:50] He is. Is. Yeah. So shoot him a follow, Greg Hallback, and he'll be joining us next week on the show. Besides that, guys, we appreciate you all listening. Please share the show with any of your friends that are into real estate business or anything else. You also shoot us a follow on Instagram. I'm at Mike underscore Invest. Dan is at investor man. Dan Dylan is at Dylan underscore Doug underscore deals. We'll talk to you guys next time. Thanks, everybody.

Dan Austin: [44:11] See you. See you.

Mike DeHaan: [44:13] Thanks for listening, everyone. If you want more from us, you can shoot us a follow on Instagram. I am at Mike underscore Invest. Dan is at Investor Man. Dan and Dylan is at Dylan underscore Does underscore Deals. Choose a follow and send us a DM to let us know what you think of the show.