New Investment Strategy to Turn Non-Cash Flow Properties Into Long-Term Wealth w/ Camron Cathcart

Mike DeHaan: [0:00] Really quick before the show starts, in case you haven't heard, we have a growing community of investors called the scale community, which is full of people learning to make massive income with their real estate businesses, so they can reach financial freedom a little bit faster than building a rental portfolio solely over time, because honestly, that takes decades and who has time for that. So if you're an investor who is serious about growing and creating a scalable business without needing to be a slave to it twenty four seven, then go to collectingkeys.com/scale and apply. And if you're a good fit, we would love to have you join the community. So again, collectingkeys.com/scale, go ahead and apply, and see if you're a good fit.

Camron Cathcart: [0:38] Worst case scenario, it's about an 11% IRR on it. But best case scenario is we are able in two or three years to refinance those properties. They're able to recapture all of their cash back, and they get to be a fifty fifty partner in it forever.

Mike DeHaan: [0:58] What's going on, guys? On today's episode of the collecting keys real estate investing podcast, we have Cameron Cathbart. And Dan, I gotta say, that might be one of my favorite interviews that we have done ever. It has to

Dan Austin: [1:12] be top one or two. Like, I can't think of one, so it doesn't really matter if there's ever one better than that. It was I enjoyed every minute of Like, I was leaning in. I was listening. He's a great speaker too.

Mike DeHaan: [1:22] He is a great speaker and and super super, like, detailed in what he's talking about. You know? And it's very rarely do we get people on the show that are such, like, true legitimate operators that are doing good at the entirety of the business. Right? They're at the marketing. They're good at the sales. He has this acquisition strategy for buying long term rentals. They talked about kind of end of the show, which is so interesting that I've never really thought about before, which is really sort of long term focus and a great way to sort of deal with the current interest rate environment. And, you know, I we get pretty technical in this talking about some of his metrics and KPIs and other things. And right away, just from those, we know that he's not a BSer because He's not joking. He's saying all the same stuff that we have verified investors and business owners saying. And, you know, we get fully into just like how he breaks down his business. He basically built out his business in St. Louis. Now he lives in Maui and does the whole thing virtually, Still doing like 60 plus deals a year, buying a ton of flips, doing a ton of wholesales, and he's just

Dan Austin: [2:21] crushing it, man. Like, it was such a good great episode. Refreshing to have somebody talk about their business and how they've pivoted it over the last few years because markets change, and you and I know that, how he's pivoted and is still getting after it. It was really refreshing. He wasn't living vicariously through three years ago stories. Exactly. And it's been I mean,

Mike DeHaan: [2:40] he started almost the same time as us, and it was so interesting to see how how similar the progressions are. You know. And I also do appreciate that he has his own show that he does with Brandon Turner, and he still took the time to come and talk to us and just as a little maybe flex, maybe just like coincidence, Brandon Turner was in the room when we hopped on, which was kinda So anyways, really good show today, guys. I guess this one you can take some notes on. Really, especially listen at the beginning to how we got started when he didn't have any money. Like, it's a it's a very interesting take on sort of like that initial phase of closing deals and and getting getting the first bit of money in the bank. And like I said, just so many great pieces. So check out the show, share with anybody who is interested in doing off market real estate because there's tons of extra info in here that you're not gonna get from Dan and I because he had a different spin on things. And don't be afraid to give him a follow on Instagram, because that's why he comes on these shows begin with. So enjoy this one, guys. A really great show today with Cameron Cathcart. Alright, guys, we are here today with Cameron Cathcart. Dude, I'm so excited to have you on the show. You know, we kind of bent a little bit before, but it's very rare that we get, like, a true single family operator that has built something that is really, really impressive, and also does it in a virtual model, which is similar to how Dan Moo does it. So, dude, really excited to have you on.

Mike DeHaan: [3:56] Why don't you give us a really quick breakdown about what your business currently looks like and, you know, what your deal flow is, what your

Camron Cathcart: [4:02] portfolio is, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. So right now, my wife and I, we own multiple different LCs. But really, the two big ones are Revel City Properties, which is our rental portfolio, and Revel City Homebuyers, which is our house buying company. And we we started in 2020. Quick backstory on that. I was I was a pastor and and absolutely loved that, wasn't making a ton of money and wanted to honestly wanted to figure out a way to make more money. And so we got into real estate at beginning of twenty twenty. And in 2020, we were kind of executing the BRRRR method. That was our our goal was to BRRRR houses because I read Brandon's you know, Brandon Turner, he wrote a book on on BRRRRRing properties, which is for people who don't know, I'm sure most people that are listening to this do know, but buy, renovate, rent, refinance, repeat. And so we did we did our first one in January 2020, and we were able to to buy a cash flowing rental property that at the end had about $50,000 in equity in it, and it was cash flowing, you know, $160 a month, so not a ton. But we are able to recapture all of our cash, and we were like, this is amazing. Let's do this as many times as we can. And that was in in January 2020. In February 2020, we bought, like, six or seven more houses.

Camron Cathcart: [5:16] And in March 2020, I realized, hey, I'm paying assignment fees on a lot of these, and I wanna go direct to seller. And so I I went direct to seller. And since then, we have kind of just scaled that business to be at about we're buying in 2020, 2021 and 2022. We were around 100 to 130 houses a year 2023 and 2024. We've we've scaled back in 2024. I think we're on pace for about 60 houses this year. And we've kind of switched our model to where now, I would say, it it used to be a sixty forty split and between we'd wholesale 60% and flip 40%. We're probably flipping 60 to 70% now in wholesaling, you know, 30 to 40%. So

Mike DeHaan: [6:03] nice. It's so funny. Your timeline is so similar to ours. Yeah, literally, you see, started January 2020. That's when Dan and I, I guess, officially started our business together. But we started exploring same as you. We've done burs, and we were like, why are we paying these $30,000 fees? Right? And that was at the end of twenty nineteen in very, very similar paths. So I gotta ask you

Dan Austin: [6:23] a question along the lines of this too. So I see I'm guessing you're not at home where Rebel City is, it seems like so. Or do you do this virtually? How how are you guys set up

Camron Cathcart: [6:33] to do this? We did not do it virtually for the first three years. Moved to to Maui in January 2023. And the first three years, we were grinding. We're like, when we started in 2020, we had a a very specific why behind it, and it was because I wanted to spend more time with my my kids and my family. We have five year goals. And in January 2020, we wrote on my wife framed it and then and put it on us, but one of them was to live in Hawaii by 2025. And so and I say that to say, like, so we had a a very specific goal in mind where it was like, we want to build this business and get out to StrongWear because I still operate it every single day. I'm in the business thirty to forty forty hours a week. I'm just no longer going and walking houses, and I'm no longer connecting with like, we can talk about how we buy houses. One of our big things is buying from connector leads. I'm no longer connecting with wholesalers, agents, property management companies, senior living facilities. I'm not the person that's boots on the ground anymore, but we specifically planned our business that way to to grow into that so we could move to Maui. Yeah. We just happened two years sooner than we had had expected.

Camron Cathcart: [7:47] So it was a

Mike DeHaan: [7:47] little late. That's great. I like the way that you approach that though, because I feel like so many people, they have this view that real estate needs to be like, you need to be in your location that you live or that you sort of understand. But it's like any other business, right? It has systems, has marketing, it has sales, it has processes that you can make fully virtual if you want to.

Dan Austin: [8:08] When I I think too, with that, along that line, would just add is like, we just got back from our an in person event we do with our group every every year. It's called KeysCon, and one of the things we like to kick off with is like this dream visioning exercise. And it's, like, taking the time to vision what you actually want and, like, be okay with wanting, like, maybe I'm guessing moving to Hawaii by 2025 was a big thing for you guys. And so it's, like, putting it out there early on and knowing what you're working towards. Like, why are you doing all this and setting it up that way, so that when you are building it like this, you can do it virtually and keep operating and actually still accomplish your goals.

Camron Cathcart: [8:42] Yes. So like talking about vision, and this sounds super corny, and I'm not like super far out there, but I'm such a firm believer in having a very specific vision of where you want to go, and I do this thing every morning, and again, it sounds corny, but I go and I meet with myself in five years. And so like, I literally close my eyes, and I will go and I'll have coffee. It's like it's five, ten minutes with myself in five years. And the thing with it is when you're envisioning yourself in five years, you're envisioning like, what your dream is. And so like, I'm a better husband. I'm a better dad. I'm in a financially, like better spot. And the thing that that helps me with is then when I am living out my day, I'm aligned in the habits and the the actions that I'm taking to be that person in five years. Whereas, like, hey, if my wife and I are in an argument, I'm like, I could either, like, continue to argue and and cause just disruption in our relationship, but that's not getting me to where I wanna be in five years. Or, hey, I could sleep in today, but that's not getting me to the person that I wanna be in five years. And so having that clear vision of who I wanna be in five years, you know, literally going and visiting that person every single day of who I wanna be, it aligns my day to do the things and the tasks and the habits that I need to do to be that person. Sure. Well,

Mike DeHaan: [10:01] it's funny because, you know, you said woo woo wee people. They call that vision. Disciplined people call that intention. Yeah. Exactly. Same thing. It's the different mindset around how you approach it. So when you were building up that business, I mean, got to a pretty aggressive rate of acquisitions very quickly. Mhmm. What did that look like? Were you doing, like, mass marketing? You you mentioned a connector leads. I might have looked what that is.

Camron Cathcart: [10:24] One of the things that helped me a ton when I first started was, really quickly, I bought a ton of properties. And I'm naturally a networker. I love to go to different meetups, I love to have coffee, I love to go grab drinks, you know, and just meet people. And so I met probably the biggest house buyer in St. Louis, and became really great friends with him, and he took me under his wing, and I actually started buying houses for him. And so he was covering the marketing for me. We you know, I sat in and and helped with a lot of the marketing. He was covering the marketing for me, and I was going out, and I was using his money to buy houses, and I was getting it was essentially like a JV agreement. I was getting a percentage of that. He was taking more because it was his money, it was his marketing, he was taking the risk. And so I did that for the first year of when I started. And so I was set up in that aspect of, hey, I was able to do it and have a really incredible mentor and not have a ton of risk and get to learn a ton in that very first year. And so when I say that I bought a 100 houses my first year, I don't wanna lie to anybody and be like, it was it was on me. I was using his money to do it, and he had already built up a marketing strategy to do that. So I was buying for him, and I was just I was still out there buying connector leads, but even the connector leads were for him.

Camron Cathcart: [11:44] And then really quickly after a year, I realized, hey. I don't mean this to sound bad, but I can just go do this myself and keep 100% of the profits versus having this kind of JV agreement type deal. But the connector leads was one of the things that pushed me towards that. So one of the things that I got really good at was realizing like, hey, with wholesalers, even though there was a lot of direct to seller marketing that was involved, I realized that a lot of times I can find wholesalers that will sell me the house for way cheaper than they're gonna sell it to anybody else. And that's just through relationship building. My first year, I started a wholesaler mastermind. And it was specifically for new wholesalers. And this was in 2020 when the real estate market was really hot, and everybody had seen Instagram about what wholesaling is, and everybody wanted to be a wholesaler. But nobody really knew how to do it. And so I started a wholesaling mastermind for like 10 beginning wholesalers. And I was a beginner too. But I was leading that mastermind in St. Louis. And because of that, they saw me as a leader within that group. And so every time they got a direct to seller marketing lead, they would bring it to me.

Camron Cathcart: [12:52] And I kinda even worked out something with them where every time you get a lead, bring me on it. I will negotiate the lead for you. Well, first of all, I'll walk the house with you. I'll run numbers on the house with you. I will tell you where I'm at, and then we can you tell me where you wanna be at to get that split, and I'll walk in and I'll negotiate the number that you wanna be at. And so I I essentially had 10 to 15 people doing direct to seller marketing for me Yeah. I wasn't paying for. And so and they would just bring me their leads, and they would get paid money on it. I'll I'll tell you a quick story that, like, took this group off to the next level was one of the third or fourth weeks that I was was hosting this this mastermind, one of the guys in the group, he brings me a house, and he's like, hey. I just got this direct to seller lead. He was going he was actually with sending direct mail through ballpoint marketing. He's like, I got this got this lead. You know, can you come walk it with me and just help me help me out? It was his very first lead he'd ever gotten. I was like, I'd love to. So we go, we walk the house. It's in a great area, great part of town. And so we go walk the house, and the entire time, the lady's like, if I get $200,000 for this, if I get $200,000 for this, I'd I'd be so happy. So I already knew that we could buy the house for $200,000. So we walk the house, we step out to my car, I run numbers on the house.

Camron Cathcart: [14:09] I actually, at this time, there was a bunch of hedge funds buying in the area, and I I knew the hedge fund acquisition manager. And so I step out of my car, I call him real quick. He's like, yeah. He ran numbers on it. He's like, I'll give you $2.50 for it. So I stepped back into the car, talked to the wholesaler, and I tell him, hey, I'll buy this from you at $2.30, knowing that we're gonna go in and buy it at 200. And so we go in, we buy it for 200. His very first deal, literally his first round of mailers, he makes a 30 k assignment. I get it for $2.30. I wholesale it to the the hedge fund for $2.50. I make a 20 k spread. But he brought that back to the group the next week. Was like, Cameron could have told me that he was at 02:05 for this, and and I would have taken it. And so like, just that little, like, piece of integrity and caring about, like, the win for the other person, everybody in that group was like, Cameron's gonna always do what he can for me. And after that deal, like, every single person in that group would bring me deals. So it was it was actually crazy because I added it all up. Within those people, we were they were probably spending $60 on marketing every single month within those and I wasn't spending any. Nice. I was just using them, spending the money, and I was like their their person they'd bring on every deal. I would cut them in on every deal and give them an assignment, but it was a a really fascinating model that I kind of built in that first year just to get a ton of houses that way.

Camron Cathcart: [15:36] And we were still doing direct to seller marketing ourselves, but I honestly bought probably 70% of my houses from connector leads that very first year. The benefit that the the person that I was buying houses for was, hey. We're gonna do your marketing for you, and we'll pay for it. Mhmm. And I was buying from connectors. I'm like, well, if I'm buying way more houses from connectors than the marketing that you're paying me for, I'm just gonna go out and do it all myself, on my own. Totally.

Mike DeHaan: [15:59] Yeah. That's that's really interesting. So you're basically just like, I don't know, like a benevolent mercenary. Like, you were bringing all the hustle. Yeah. But they didn't want. They all had the inside skill set to find the leads, but I'm guessing you're really, really good at the sales part, which is typically, in our experience, the hardest part for people to figure out in this business.

Camron Cathcart: [16:18] Yeah, I think the sales part is something that a lot of people don't have Mhmm. Coming into it where and for me, I'm super fortunate that it's the way that I'm wired. I truly do love people, and I love hanging out with people. I love hearing people's stories, and I think that I come across as very authentic, and I am authentic. So I'm not saying that it's like a fake thing that I'm putting up. I come across as authentic, and have integrity, and wanna truly care about every person when we walk their house, and and how we can help them, and there's been countless amount of times where I've pushed them in other directions than selling to me, because it just didn't make sense for them to sell to me. And so I was really good at the negotiation side of things, and one of the things that I found with at least that specific group when we started was there were so many people that saw an Instagram post, or, you know, that was when Deal Machine was just starting, and like, oh, I can go drive for dollars, and I can send mail, and just like click the app, and it's gonna send mail for me, or I can go drive for dollars, I can skip trace the list, and I can call these call these numbers and and try and get leads. But a lot of them were 22, 23, 24 year old guys, and mean, I was only 28 at the time, but they had no idea how to run numbers on a house. They had no idea how to pull comps on a house.

Camron Cathcart: [17:35] They had no idea how to analyze a rehab budget. They had no idea how to come up with an offer. They had no idea how to negotiate it. And so so that was the value add that I was able to bring to the table was, hey, I can do all of that for you. You just have to find the lead, and then I'll cut you in on the assignment. I'll I'll figure out a a fair assignment for you where I can still make money on the back end. And so it worked. It was a really great process because it was a win for them. It was a win for the seller. Was and it was a win for me. And so it was a win win scenario across the board. The other value add that I was bringing is, like, I'm an open book, so I'm gonna show you like, hey, here's the comps that I'm using when we're walking this house and we're analyzing these deals. Here's the rehab budget that I'm putting together. Here's where I think that we can sell it on the back end if we're wholesaling, or here's if I'm flipping it, here's what that's gonna look like. And so there is a lifespan where eventually, and that was my goal, eventually, they can go out and do it on their own, and they have all of the tools and strategies to be able to do it on their own. And so I would say with a lot of those people that I started with, they have gone out and done it on their own. I still buy a lot of houses from them. I'm just not the only buyer now.

Dan Austin: [18:43] Yeah. That's so valuable what you're

Camron Cathcart: [18:44] saying for anybody listening that's either like kind

Dan Austin: [18:46] of in that new stage or starting out. You're calling it connector leads. It's just being a connector Mhmm. And being helpful and and being valuable to other people. Bringing value to other people, we see that a lot. We we have a a close friend that's that's a lot like that. I mean, he he's just just based on him being a good person and connecting other people, he's able to monetize that, which is really it's a really great skill to have. But also, the part that you touched on earlier is, like, the ethics around it, like, being honest and open and having high integrity because the minute you don't, it's like you're no longer a connector. Right? You're no longer valuable to anybody because now you've done something that's self interested, unethical, and Mike and I run into people like this all the time. It seems like there's some people that only look for, like, that one transaction, and then they'll do whatever they have to to maximize their profit on that transaction at one time, and it really spoils the relationship or turns you off for whatever reason. And I think those two things in this industry, high integrity and being being a connector, are probably the two most valuable skills you can have.

Camron Cathcart: [19:44] Yeah. I would be it's the whole saying like, don't step over $1 to pick up a doc. Exactly. And a good story around that is there's a wholesaler that I buy from. And I've probably already bought seven or eight houses from them this year. And we've done one we've done one house this year that we've made over 6 figures on. It was a flip, and then the other are had probably been between that 30 and $50,000 range. So, I mean, I've made 3 or $400,000 this year alone off of that wholesaler. Wow. But one of the the cool, like, pieces of the reason that he sells me, and I'm I'm pretty much exclusive to him, is because we did a deal last year where there were no rehab comps on the house that he brought me. And so there were houses selling at $4.50 that were, I would call them grandma clean houses. I, in my heart, knew this is a 500 plus house. I just didn't have comps to support it. One of the things in our business is, like, we don't go off of gut feelings. Like, we do not, like, there's no emotion involved. We are gonna buy where the comps tell us to buy, and if we don't have a rehab comp, we're not just gonna make up some arbitrary number and say, oh, this is a five fifteen house because all the other houses are four fifty houses and haven't been rehabbed. Even though in my gut I knew that, I couldn't run my numbers like that. So I ran my numbers. It's a four fifty house, and we ended up buying it for around $2.50 from him. He had a seven k assignment on it, I think is what it was.

Camron Cathcart: [21:08] And we ended up rehabbing it, and we sold it for 5, I think, $5.45 after the rehab. So we we ended up making a $150,000 on that deal. It was one of our biggest spreads ever. After we closed on it, I called him up, and I was like, hey. Write me a consulting agreement for $30,000. I sent him $30,000 extra on top of that. I didn't have to do that. And I I will say, like, there was strategy behind it because I knew doing that, like, I'm his guy if I do that. I didn't have to do that, but it was, one, I love the guy. He's an amazing person. He sold me the house that we did really well on, and I wanted to help him out and thank him for that. But, also, I knew, hey. If I do this, like, he's gonna continue sending me deals because he knows I'm gonna take care of them. Totally. And, you know, this year alone, that $30,000, I've I've 10 x already in the the six months of 2024. Yeah. Yeah. And that makes sense too because you're like,

Dan Austin: [22:01] that $30,000, I'm not saying it did this, but that could have been the the wind he needed under his sales that he's keeps going. And like you're saying, now you're still buying deals from him. So it's a really great strategy.

Mike DeHaan: [22:12] Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So that was the bulk of your business for your time in St. Louis. When you transition to go moving to Maui, what did that look like? Right? So, obviously, you're not there to, like, run the mastermind anymore. You're doing your due diligence and everything remotely. You're not walking your own properties. Let me start this way. When you made that transition, did you have a team, or are you still just like a one or two person operation?

Camron Cathcart: [22:38] So we have a team of, I would say, 12 people and then probably three or four VAs. So I would say we're probably at about 16 people or so. Wow. Nice. On our team.

Mike DeHaan: [22:47] Similar size. Yeah. So like mostly acquisitions.

Camron Cathcart: [22:50] Yeah. So we have four acquisitions. We have a lead manager, a marketing manager, a project manager, a maintenance tech, and then me and my wife. And then some some VAs. And then I I have a EA that kinda helps in a couple different companies. So

Mike DeHaan: [23:08] yo, if you don't follow me on Instagram, which is that Mike underscore invests, by the way, then you might not know that we officially have a new mission as a brand, and that is to help 2,000 real estate investors build million dollar businesses. Obviously, to do that, we need to get in front of as many people as possible. So quick little ask to help us reach that goal. First, shoot me a follow on Instagram at Mike underscore invests. Second, follow collecting keys podcast on Instagram. That's at collecting keys podcast all written out. And third, every time the algorithm is kind enough to show you a post from either of us, share it on your story or in your post and tag us. If you do that, I'll DM you and we can have a little DM conversation about what is preventing you from having that million dollar business that everyone is seeking. And we can see if we can come up with a plan to help you make that massive income, not just passive income. So again, if you see any of our posts, just go ahead, reshare them, tag us, and let everyone know that you enjoy the content we produce. It will help us a ton, and then I'll be happy to help you as well. Can I ask you like some technical stuff on your business just because this is always interesting to sort of figure how these numbers and stuff look? So what's your current form of lead generation?

Camron Cathcart: [24:21] So we do direct mail, and then retargeting is probably our biggest form of lead generation.

Mike DeHaan: [24:26] Like Internet retargeting? Mhmm. What's your typical cost per deal right

Dan Austin: [24:30] now?

Camron Cathcart: [24:30] Right now, it's not great. It's a bad question. Paying we're probably paying about $4,000 per deal.

Mike DeHaan: [24:35] Dude, so it's so Right. I always get freaking, like, excited because it's so interesting. Literally, these numbers are the same with every single major operator that we talk to. I hear all the

Camron Cathcart: [24:46] time they they're paying $1,200 on social media for

Mike DeHaan: [24:50] It's because they're fucking liars. They're lying to you. Like, they're lying to you. Totally. Good.

Camron Cathcart: [24:53] I I was embarrassed to say that out loud. No. No. We're at

Dan Austin: [24:56] what are we at, Mike? 4,200 right now?

Mike DeHaan: [24:58] We're at 4,200 right now, which is which is higher than it was years ago. We just had Ryan Weimer on the podcast, you know him super good operator Boise. He said he's at like 4,300 or 4,400. We have a friend down in Dallas who does hundreds of deals a year $203,100 plus, He's sitting even higher. Think what was it bulbous billy at when he was on, like, 48? He was at 48.

Dan Austin: [25:18] He has come down from eight from, like, beginning of the year, which was a lot.

Mike DeHaan: [25:21] But Yeah. But, like, verified operators, numbers are always so so similar.

Dan Austin: [25:26] That's our test so we know you're real.

Mike DeHaan: [25:28] Yeah. As soon as somebody says like 1,200, I'm like, this person's this person's full of it. And that's cool. And so you're doing this all virtually. What does that look like now? Is your team on the ground there? Are they like running appointments and stuff? They're all on

Camron Cathcart: [25:40] the ground. So we're the only people that aren't on the ground anymore. And I don't wanna paint this, like, vision to people that we just picked up and moved to Maui and retired. We are still very involved in the business. We have Tuesdays, I have acquisition meetings, finance meetings, marketing meetings. We would say Tuesdays, that's Mondays. Tuesdays, we have our full team meeting, our project man. Like, we're still very involved in the business. I'm still doing acquisitions for us where I'm just connecting with all of the I'm not doing any of our direct to seller acquisitions. Those are for people on the ground. Because one of the things that that we do do as a company is we make offers without any contingencies. On every single house that we buy, there will be no contingencies whatsoever. So we have to go walk every single house that we buy, and we'll tell sellers that. And and, honestly, we'll tell them, like, hey. If you got an offer over the phone, it's not a real offer. It's just not. They're gonna shop it and try and retrade. So we're we're pretty open about that, where we'll make offers without any contingencies. Every once in a while, we will it's on septic or has terrible foundation, or if it's just a house that we don't wanna flip ourselves and we don't feel we don't feel confident about it, we would we'll be open and honest about that of, hey. We are gonna put this on a contingency.

Camron Cathcart: [27:01] You typically fourteen days, and we're gonna get some of our investors in here to see if they're interested in it. We think that they would be, but we wanna be very clear with them. Like, you have to give us fourteen days. Don't start go planning your life with this money because there's a chance that this doesn't go through. But with houses that I mean, that's one of the the values that we bring to the sellers and even the wholesalers that we work with is we've never backed out of a contract before, and we've never backed out of a contract before. That's crazy. Contract without contingencies. But we we have before with yeah. With contingencies, if we have that but typically, we're honest about that. Or Mhmm. Not typically. All the time, we're honest about that of like, hey. We're gonna try and and find somebody to to buy this one of our investors. We we really connected, but we we can only offer you this if you put us let us put on fourteen day contingency.

Mike DeHaan: [27:50] That makes sense, especially if you're like an end buyer because you you do a lot of flips. We do. I mean, so yeah, that helps you sort of be comfortable with that. We used to do that a lot more when we were doing a lot more personal acquisition, but we're almost 100% wholesale right now. And so yeah, our typical close rate, especially we are all virtual is about 70%, which also is is typical in industry average. But when you're doing the flips, I mean, that's the easiest way to knock out your competition is to remove all those contingencies, put down legitimate earnest money. If you're closing yourself, you should be comfortable doing that.

Camron Cathcart: [28:22] That's what we have found is one, we've kind of switched our model quite a bit. And part of that was the market forced us to where legitimate buyers have just dried up because there were so many people in 2020, 2021 that, again, saw a podcast or a social media post and were like, oh, I wanna invest. And so there's a lot more buyers out there for us to to wholesale to. And then, you know, I I don't want some people don't love this, but I sold a lot to hedge funds. Mhmm. There was a lot of hedge funds in St. Louis, and it was like stealing candy from a baby because they told me their buy box exactly what they were looking for, and I could go walk a house. Literally, yeah, I could send the acquisition manager for the hedge fund pictures, and they would get me an offer, and they were always good for it. And so then I just knew what I had to go get it under. So I I sold a ton to hedge funds, and hedge funds in St. Louis have completely dried up. And so we've switched our model more to flipping focus. One, I think we do probably the best job in St. Louis at flipping houses. Like, our houses are beautiful. They they sell quick, and it's also it has given us our profit per deal has went up to over $40,000, where typically we were around I mean, we were always $40,000 plus on flips, but with our wholesale, we were at, you know, 11 k profit per deal. And so now we're still scaling back in the amount of transactions. We're still going to make more money than we did in 2022 and 2021 by flipping houses. Totally. Was that like a growing pain for you to switch over?

Camron Cathcart: [29:58] Were you guys as far as going more flips with managing the contractors? It sounds like

Dan Austin: [30:02] you have a project manager, which probably helps a ton.

Camron Cathcart: [30:04] Yeah. So I would say that was one of the reasons we did it is because we'd found a project manager who is a just stud. He's absolutely incredible. He I think we hired one who was really great, and I don't wanna knock him at all. We hired one, we were probably six months in. So we were new to it. And in my mind, I was like, oh, we need to hire a project manager. And we were like, who's somebody that we know that's good at construction? And so we we hired a union carpenter to come manage our projects, which was great for probably the season of of life that we're in or the season that our business was in where we were doing three to four flips at a time. But he didn't have the mind to manage 15 properties. Yeah, he was he was a carpenter. And so where he helped us a lot was he was able to get into houses and swing the hammer and, hey, we're over budget here. Well, I'll just go do this. Now our project manager, he doesn't touch the houses, but he is able to keep track of budgets, keep projects moving along, and he can do 15 at a time. And so he's absolutely incredible. And I think he was one of the deciding factors where we had him and we realized, like, he we're adding more to his workload, and and he's continuing to do great, and he's continuing to do great. And so he was one of the reasons that we were able to to do that. And he was able to with some of the crews that we had already built relationships with, but just from his industry connections, able to get a more crews. So now we have seven or eight crews, and all of those crews have a couple of them are one or two man shows, but a couple of them have 10 to 15 people that are on that, so they can that that crew can honestly knock out two or three houses at a time. So we were able to do it at scale

Mike DeHaan: [31:53] or flip house. Are those all all subs, or you guys

Camron Cathcart: [31:55] are on staff? No. Those are yeah. Those are all subs to 99. So our project manager basically manages all the subs. Sure.

Dan Austin: [32:03] Yep. I feel like that's a great model because like best of both worlds. Right? The projects being managed by your company, your employees, but you don't have that just major overhead of carrying 30 guys to go do all your flips.

Camron Cathcart: [32:15] Yeah. So I I added it up before and, like, with we probably have 60 guys that are working at a time on our houses. Wow. But those are all I don't those aren't employees of ours. Those are ten ninety nine guys that our project managers just in charge of. So it makes it really easy for us where we don't have the risk, the liability, or just the pressure with me is is kinda being the the owner or the CEO, I guess, to to have to manage them and keep them in mind.

Dan Austin: [32:46] Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Management of that would be stressful. And not only if you're like, well, now I'm buying more flips just to pay these guys just so they

Mike DeHaan: [32:53] can keep working, there's just so much with that. Yeah. What about your capital situation? How are paying for all these houses?

Camron Cathcart: [32:59] So when we first started, I was using private money, and so really, I made a list of all the rich people that I knew. And I just kind of went down the line and got told no multiple times. But my my uncle, he said yes, that very first deal that I was talking about that burr property where I think we bought that property for, like, 65,000. We put 30 into it. We got it appraised at $1.55 or something like that. Took us sixty days, and he'd given us 95, and we gave him a $100,000 back in sixty days or something like that. He's like, this is amazing. Let's do it again. And so he's grown with us to where we have a lot of capital out with him. Obviously, as we've grown, we've needed more capital. And so we've been able to use our own capital quite a bit. We do use our own capital. How we do that is we lend our own money to the home buying business. So we're still paying interest on it, but we're lending our personal funds to the home buying business. And then we we have a great, just hard money lender in St. Louis that we use. That's kind of the last option because that's the most expensive. They're think with with me now they're 10 and one, but still it's the most expensive money that we use. So that's if we're if we've tapped out all the other resources, I will use them. We probably have, I would guess, 3,500,000 out on the street, and we're not hurting for capital.

Camron Cathcart: [34:21] So I've just gotten fortunate that with my uncle, with this hard money lender, and then through just the process, I've had multiple different people reach out and say, hey. Can I be a private money? There's probably been outside of that very first house when I did have to scramble a little bit for funds. There's probably been two times over the last four years that I had to, like, pick up my phone and and try and raise funds.

Dan Austin: [34:47] Sure. That's awesome.

Mike DeHaan: [34:48] Yeah. What do you normally pay your private money lenders, or do you just, like, see what their ask is?

Camron Cathcart: [34:53] Yeah. So it's typically anywhere from 10 to 12%, but no points and we'll just do a promissory note. So I won't even

Dan Austin: [34:59] put them up to you. Yeah. That's helpful. It's also I like your strategy. Mike and I do the same thing with lending yourself your money because it almost, like, forces you to be more efficient with it and also gives yourself almost, like, a little bit of a paycheck because otherwise, you're like, oh, I'm just putting money in here, and it's and it may or may not giving me a return. At least there, you're, like, guaranteeing your return. It kinda gives you some urgency as a business when you're reading your p and

Camron Cathcart: [35:21] l to look at your true carry costs. Yes, that's important for us. Because for instance, like, we we just did a house that we paid cash flow as a flip and end up taking way too long. And if if it was just our own money, and we weren't paying ourselves interest, I think we made like $35 on it is is the problem. But and so like, we could be like, we made $35, but we had $300,000 of our own capital tied up into it for six months, you know, and so so really, if we were using anybody else, we would have made $12 or something like that. I don't I don't know the numbers on And so it it's important to pay ourselves, one, just because you can see your true numbers. But two, we also pay our acquisition managers off of commission. Like, if they find a house, they get 25% of the profit. I don't think it's fair for them to get 25 off the 35,000 because that's not a true number. So it it helps also track that where it's like, hey. Even though it's our own money, it's not the company's money. It's Lexi and I's money.

Mike DeHaan: [36:27] Right? Exactly. Yeah. I noticed you saying our and we a lot. Is your wife involved in your business? Very. Yes. Very interesting. It's my

Camron Cathcart: [36:35] wife and I were co owners of the business. She so really, how how we started the business and this was this is one of the reasons we were able to scale so fast is because from day one, we had our lanes, and we never really crossed paths. And so from day one, I was in charge of basically getting a deal to the closing table. And once we closed on it, she was in charge of everything else. And so what that did for me when I first started, I I was literally able to spend sixty hours a week just out there finding deals. I got I was in charge of finding deals and putting them under contract. And then once we closed on it, whether it was a rental property because I think that first year, we added, you know, twenty twenty rental doors to our portfolio. So whether it was a rental property or whether it was a flip, she was in charge of the rehab of that and getting tenants in in those houses that we were buying or managing the flip. And that was why after, like, six months, her job got to be a lot, which we hired on the project manager. But that was so helpful. And it that's kinda the same flow we have to this day where she is still over Steve. She's over Connor, who is our maintenance tech. We've built a a property management company, which is really just VAs. So but she's over them as well. And so so that's that's her role.

Camron Cathcart: [38:02] And then I'm still in on the in charge of kind of the front end of the business, which is acquisitions. Nice. Yeah. So you

Dan Austin: [38:07] guys are both definitely really busy.

Camron Cathcart: [38:09] I know you've mentioned it, but

Dan Austin: [38:10] you guys definitely both are full time. That's a lot of stuff. You just what you lift off listed off what your wife is doing. That's a lot.

Camron Cathcart: [38:15] Yeah. I try my best to never paint this picture, but one of the biggest disservices that we can do as operators is paint this vision of it's not that hard. Yeah, totally. Because I work a lot, And we've been really successful. And I'm very happy to work a lot because of the return that we're getting. And I will say like being an entrepreneur, I also am able to say, hey, I'm gonna stop working at 10:00 this morning after these meetings. But I also have days where I work eighteen hours, you know, and so I don't ever want to give off this, this, like, oh, I've got a team that just runs everything for me. And I'm sitting here drinking my ties in Maui. That's that's not the case. I sometimes wish it was, but that's not the case.

Dan Austin: [39:01] We we work a lot.

Mike DeHaan: [39:03] You just leave that for for Brandon to do for you.

Camron Cathcart: [39:05] Exactly. But

Mike DeHaan: [39:07] now that that's super cool, though, that you guys were able to build that together and and set that balance. I know that's something that Dan and I get asked about a lot is how we balance things with our spouses. Neither of our spouses are involved in our business. But it's such a challenging thing that so many men that get into this business deal with because there either isn't the interest or like the skill set isn't there. Right? And I think being able to do that, it's awesome because you're able to have these different extra pieces, but also to you're able to keep all the money versus, like, having a business partner.

Camron Cathcart: [39:35] Yep. That's the beauty, I think, of it. There's so many benefits to it. One, like, I love my wife. She's amazing. We've definitely gotten to some really heated fights, you know, in just running a business together. We have to we have to set up boundaries within our relationship of like, on date nights, we're not talking about business. And so there there's a lot of challenges with running a business with with my wife, but it's also she's my best friend and I get to run a business with, like, the the person I'm gonna spend the rest of my life with and somebody that I love more than anything. And then on top of all of that, like, there is the aspect of it where it's like we own, you know, $1,516,000,000,000 dollars in real estate, and we don't have partners on it. You know? We don't have to split all of our profits fifty fifty because we own the business, but we have two really hardworking people. Because I there is no way that we would have been able to scale the way that we had if it was just me or if was just her. I would have had to have brought in a partner, but we just were super fortunate that we both took our lanes, and we ran a 100 miles an hour down those lanes, and and we're able to to grow the business together. That's awesome. So we're coming up on time pretty quick.

Mike DeHaan: [40:49] I'm really enjoying this conversation. I have one more big question for you that I'm curious about from an operator perspective. Are you still buying, like, long term hold stuff with current interest rates and the economic situation?

Camron Cathcart: [41:01] Yes. But I'm I'm paying those off in cash right now.

Mike DeHaan: [41:04] Interesting.

Camron Cathcart: [41:05] So we we could get into that a little bit, so we just changed our strategy. And I'll give you a quick reason why, which you guys already know this, but in St. Louis in 2020, 2021, and the beginning of 2022, It was so easy to burr properties. Yeah, I could be all in on a house for $180,000 It would rent for $2,000 a month. And that would that would cash flow 3 or $400 a month. 400 is probably pushing cash flow $2.50 to $300 a month. Now that same property negatively cash flows $200 a month. And so and I get really I get really annoyed with people that say that they're buying long term rentals. Because I know that like, hey, I'm above the 1% rule. And it's not cash flow, seven and a half, 8%. Like, it's not cash flowing. There's, you're either running your numbers wrong, you're not including CapEx maintenance vacancy, you're doing something wrong here. If you can cash flow at the 1% rule or even one, for us, it has to be one and a half percent for it to cash flow. Honestly, that's a quick way just to, if we're gonna be on for 180, it probably has to work for $2,500 a month for cash. Right. So we didn't buy many rental properties in 2023. Flipping properties and wholesaling properties, we make a lot of money from that, and it's it's great money. But couple things. One, it's still a job. And two, it's not building it's not building the long term wealth that I probably wanted to build.

Camron Cathcart: [42:34] And so I I still believe in rental properties and and think that that's the greatest thing that I can do for our business. It's just hard to do right now. So what I have done, and this is just recently started, we can do another podcast or just talk offline about it, but I did start a fund that is buying rental properties unleveraged. So we're buying them in cash. The investors are getting 100% of the cash flow. I am getting an acquisitions fee on those ones that we're buying, which is really not going to me. It's going to to the marketing and our project manager to rehab it, so I don't really make any money off of that. But then it's a fifty fifty split on the back end. What what the benefit for the the investor is the way that we buy houses. There's typically always gonna be 50,060 thousand dollars of equity because we're buying off market direct to seller, you know. So there's always gonna be some some equity on the back end. And the goal with it is if interest rates ever drop, then we'll refinance, they'll recapture all of the money that they have invested, and they'll just be a forever partner on those homes with those investors. Fifty fifty split of cash flow and of that. Worst case scenario, interest rates never drop, and we have to sell in the way that we have it written out in the terms is in seven years, if interest rates, we can't make them cash flow by recapturing all of your capital, we we will sell. And they're still gonna make it it's about an six and a half to 7% return on their capital in in cash flow, and then they'll make 50 of the equity on the property whenever we go to sell it.

Camron Cathcart: [44:12] So it still pencils out to, like, worst case scenario, it's about an 11% IRR on it. But best case scenario is we are able in two or three years to refinance those properties. They're able to recapture all of their cash back, and they get to be a fifty fifty partner in it forever.

Dan Austin: [44:28] Yeah. That's super intriguing. I mean, that's probably the most unique, I think, idea. I guess, the way you spun it that I've seen people do it from a buy and hold standpoint, just the way you structured that fund, that actually makes a ton of sense because the challenge becomes what you know it is that we still get really, really good opportunities every day to buy really good real estate business as a cash flow under traditional burn methods.

Camron Cathcart: [44:53] That's what was making me sick is I was passing on properties, or I was flipping properties that I know I will be kicking myself in ten years that I sold it. Like in great areas for us, the three to like rectangular brick ranch is like our bread and butter for rental properties, because they're easy to rent, they're easy to maintain, and I was having to pass on those because the numbers didn't pencil out. And so I honestly just spent a long time over a couple of weeks of, like, how can I make this work? And there's some benefits in there for me too, where it's like I do get an acquisitions fee on every house that we buy, which goes to paying people, but it still keeps them fed. Mhmm. It helps with our marketing costs. And then we do charge for property management. So we're making a little bit of money, but that's just going to paying for our property management. So there's some benefit there where it just keeps the lights on as well, where I'm not making a ton of money on it. But for me, properties, we make enough money flipping and wholesaling, where rental properties for me are the long term game, where it's like, hey, can we can we leverage these and sit on them for thirty years and let them appreciate?

Camron Cathcart: [46:07] And, you know, that $200,000 house in in thirty years is now worth 600,000, and I've got, you know, 500 of those. Like, I'm I'd be really happy with that.

Mike DeHaan: [46:17] Yeah. I mean, that's the

Dan Austin: [46:18] and that's the mindset that Mike and I, I feel like, have really been pushing. We talked about, like, make massive income before passive. And what you're what you're explaining is, like, this idea of, like, you you make enough money in your active business to, like, survive and to invest.

Mike DeHaan: [46:33] But that you're missing out on

Dan Austin: [46:34] the opportunity of real estate, which

Camron Cathcart: [46:35] are the huge tax benefits and appreciation, and

Dan Austin: [46:37] then eventually potentially leverage. Right? That can really obviously that. It's really cool. It's really cool to hear. How do

Mike DeHaan: [46:43] you handle, like, reserves and stuff for that? Like, for example, say you have 10 properties and suddenly three of them need need new roofs. Are you doing, a capital call for that, or do you recycle some of the cash flow and they put it into a reserve account? In the fund? In the fund?

Camron Cathcart: [46:58] Yeah, specifically for the In the fund specifically, how it works is, there's only four investors in the fund, and they're all 25%. So I'll find a house, and let's say I'm buying it for a $100,000. It needs $30,000 worth of of work to it. So I will say, hey, here here's what I'm buying it for. Here's the rehab. Here's the acquisition fee, and then we're gonna have $10,000 in reserve. And so then, and I'll tell them, hey, here's what each of you guys need to wire me. We have an operating agreement, everything that we set up. And so I already have $10,000 in reserves on every single property. But then on top of that, that 7% cash on cash return is after paying for property management, paying into we use a profit first model where we have a vacancy account set up. We have a CapEx account set up. We have a maintenance account set up. And so before they get their, you know, their cash flow, we're paying into every one of those accounts every single month. So so we're we're building those over time. But also the way that we will do our rental properties is, mean, we're bulletproofing them. So we'll never buy a house that's turnkey and just put a a renter in there. We're buying off market distress houses. We're doing new LVP, new kitchens, new bathrooms, PVC plumbing, typically new roof, new windows, HVAC, electrical. So the hope is that there's not a lot of maintenance that's needed on those houses for years to come.

Mike DeHaan: [48:28] Awesome. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. That's super smart. Like, Dan said, that's the most unique way that I've heard of to set up, like, the acquisition side of this business, which is so hard right now. Because, mean, like, our I guess, our method for getting, like, passive income right now has been through a traditional hard money fund, which works well for us, which is great. You're selling a lot of capital, but it doesn't have, like, that up to that upside equity potential like you're describing. You know? And if you're bullish on real estate, I mean, honestly, your way is the way to go because you're completely right. If things continue to go up like they sort of have been doing, you're gonna have a huge payout at the end. Even though you might, you know, you don't necessarily have a great velocity of money right now, it really is that true long term growth. And then since you I I imagine with the LLC structure, how it is, you probably get some of the tax benefits of those things for being a part owner of the property.

Camron Cathcart: [49:15] Yes. I get the tax benefits on them. And really, now, with our personal portfolio, because our personal portfolio is about $15,000,000, and then with the Cathcart Capital is what the fund is called, we probably spent about $2,000,000 this year so far on those houses. And so but with Revel City Properties, our personal portfolio, we're able to

Mike DeHaan: [49:37] probably revolve

Camron Cathcart: [49:38] the tax benefits from that that we need to right now. But with with Cathcart Capital, the thing that I'm most excited for is that these guys that are all investing in this, they're all high net worth individuals. And for them, like, if we can refinance, then we just wanna do it again and again and again. And so there's there to me, there is potential to continue growing at a at a really fast rate.

Mike DeHaan: [50:04] Alright, guys. We're going to dive into the end of show questions here. So, Cameron, we ask the same three questions everybody that comes on the show. Don't worry, they're relatively simple. They're not, you know, what's the meaning of life or anything like that. But the first question, which is always the group favorite, is what is your craziest real estate investing story? And this is like the one that like, you're trying to be the crowd winner, like a party, right? Or you're like, in a in a car car with an Uber driver and you wanna, like, really make this guy, you know, blow blow his socks off. What's the first story that comes to your head as your craziest real estate story?

Camron Cathcart: [50:36] Yeah. The first story that always comes to my head, like, obviously, a lot of just like disgusting houses that I've walked. But one of the most interesting stories, I think it was probably crazy across the board, is I got a call, it was actually from a direct direct to seller lead. I don't remember exactly what list we're mailing. But I got a call from a guy. He's like, hey, my dad just died. And I'm selling this house. Do you mind coming over and checking it out? And so I was like, yeah, sure. I set up an appointment for for that day. I went there and was just, you know, chatting with him trying to build rapport, and talking about his dad, his family, and everything seems normal. And we're walking the house, and he opens up the the door to a bedroom, and we walk into it, and his dad is laying there dead in the

Mike DeHaan: [51:21] bed still. Oh, like, while you're still there? Jesus.

Camron Cathcart: [51:24] I found out that his dad had literally died ten minutes before he called me. Like, literally his dad dies and he's calling and trying to sell him out. Yeah. So I'm like, you you really want so that was just that was very I've just never seen a dead body in a house before. So that was, I guess, the wildest. I mean, I've I've been in a lot of murder scenes and stuff like that, but typically, the body is gone by then.

Dan Austin: [51:49] So Yeah. I mean, who knows if that was not what a murder scene is. Like, that's crazy.

Mike DeHaan: [51:54] I usually tell people not to pick a dead body story because we get a lot of those, but that one's unique because You get lot

Camron Cathcart: [51:59] of dead body stories. Oh, all

Mike DeHaan: [52:01] the time. Yeah. But usually, it's like my prop you know, one of my tenants died, and my property manager found them when they had dissolved through the floor, you know? Yeah. That just happened. Yeah. They were like, yeah, come on over. Don't mind. Don't mind dad in there. He's fine. That's that's wild. Yeah. Alright. It's a good one. Second question. What is the number one tip you have for small time investors looking to take the business to the next level?

Camron Cathcart: [52:24] Yeah, I would say that and we kind of already touched on this, but it's my biggest piece of advice to anybody that wants to get into real estate investing. And it's I don't, I personally don't think that you can do this as a side hustle. Yeah. And so like, want people to know and be realistic with the expectations around real estate investing where you can be a weekend warrior, and you're gonna make money, and you're not gonna have the systems and the processes set up to be able to be successful. And so for anybody that's listening to this that is like, hey, I wanna do what Mike and Dan are doing. I wanna do what Cameron does. Like, you have to go all in. It's not something where you can can do it on the side unless you have a just a really high w two job, and you can you have enough money to put money down and and keep money tied up into deals. Like, you have to go all in, and you have to go off market. You have to be available when you get a lead from somebody to drop everything and go walk it. Like, it's just, I think it's unrealistic because I talk to people all the time that are like, yeah, I want to do what you do. You know, I've got three hours on Thursdays and Saturdays. I'm like, it's just it's not gonna work. We literally just kind

Dan Austin: [53:39] of like, Mike and I, this last week, we were talking to a group of people, and the the comment was like, what got you in this business is not what keeps you in this business. Cause everybody thinks they wanna buy a rental property or flip a house, but if you really wanna do it, that's not gonna get you that's not gonna

Mike DeHaan: [53:52] keep you here. Yeah. And that's great. And and the the speed to lead thing is so huge. In fact, in our little Slack group for our scale community right before this, somebody was amped up and having trouble with their conversions on their sales, and they listed all their steps. And I said, what's your timeline for that? And he said about a week. And I was like, you need be doing that in twenty four hours.

Camron Cathcart: [54:07] We have a thirty second goal on any direct to seller lead, that if we don't answer the phone, we need to be calling them back within thirty seconds.

Dan Austin: [54:17] That's awesome. Amazing. That's a great

Mike DeHaan: [54:19] metric right there. Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [54:20] So that's very cool. My implement that.

Mike DeHaan: [54:23] Yeah. Last question. Where can people find you, follow you, and reach out to you?

Camron Cathcart: [54:27] Yeah. Just I'm probably most active, which is not even super active on Instagram. It is cam .kathcart, but I'd love to to chat with anybody. Cam dot kathcart on Instagram is probably going to be the the best route to find me. Yeah. And then our our business, Rebel City Homebuyer. So if you wanted to go check out our website, I've been set for our for house buying. So there's not much that you can get there. Sure. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [54:54] I do enjoy your Instagram, though. I like your little coffee with Cam videos. Thank I think those are solid. Yeah. Well, Cameron, seriously, thanks so much for coming on the show. That was a really, really awesome conversation. These sort of conversations honestly are like the ones that make me not wanna stop doing interviews. It was really good, and it's really awesome to see the success that you've had. Congratulations.

Camron Cathcart: [55:12] Thank you. It was a blast to be on, and thank you so much for thinking of me and having me on. Yeah. Absolutely. I'd love to stay connected and just got pick your guys' brain about what you guys are doing to to buy 15 to 20 houses a month. And that's that's incredible. So

Mike DeHaan: [55:27] Yeah. Absolutely, man. Alright, guys. Well, thanks so much for tuning into the show today. If you guys didn't get any buy out of that, I don't know. Just go quit the industry or something because it's not

Camron Cathcart: [55:37] for you

Mike DeHaan: [55:37] because that was about as good as it gets in terms of a operator interview right there. Go give Cameron a follow on his Instagram. He also does the better life podcast with Brandon Turner, in case you need like a little extra. I don't know, like incentive to go go follow one of the big things in real estate out there. But he does do good stuff on Instagram. Remember, people do these shows because they want to engage with you. They want you to reach out, they want to chat with you. They want you to follow them. So don't be shy. Go say what's up and let them know that you heard the click dq showing. Besides that, everybody, we appreciate you all.

Dan Austin: [56:07] And we'll talk to guys next week. Thank you. Thank you.