Building The Best Deal Pipeline With Perfect Marketing Copy with Paul DoCampo

Paul DoCampo: [0:00] Really, lead generation for acquisitions in real estate, you're not trying to convince anybody to sell. You're not trying to do any of that as opposed to you're in the financial niche and you're just trying to sell this new newsletter, this new supplement. Yeah, you're trying to convince them to buy that. But in real estate, all you're doing is you're digging through the hay, you're looking for that one person who's a seller and interested in a cash offer. That's really it. That's why lead generation copy has been so simple throughout the years because you're not trying to accomplish anything except you're trying to look for a seller.

Speaker 2: [0:33] Welcome to the Collecting Keys Real Estate Investing Podcast with your host, Mike DeHaan and Dan Austin. From wins, losses, horror stories, and tactics for optimizing your business, Mike and Dan take a real uncensored deep dive into the ins and outs of running a full time real estate investment and wholesaling business.

Mike DeHaan: [0:56] Alright. So we are here today with Paul DoCampo. Paul, thanks for coming on the show, man. Excited to have you on. I know we've been working with you a little bit through CCF and other sort of stuff, and you are kind of the copywriting guru. So appreciate you coming on to talk about everything investing and marketing related.

Paul DoCampo: [1:14] Yeah. For sure, man. I appreciate you having me on, man. Really do.

Mike DeHaan: [1:18] Absolutely. So I'd love to sort of start back how you really got into this, because, you know, I guess I've known you a little while through Ryan Dossi's program. We've I feel like we've periodically chatted every couple months over the past several years, it feels like, and then now you actually live up by us, which is kinda funny. But from what you were talking about, originally, you used to be an engineer, kinda similar to how we did or at least you worked for an engineering company.

Paul DoCampo: [1:44] Yeah. My background is has nothing related to investing or copywriting or anything technical like that. No, I was a welder. Was a foreman. Foreman? Yeah. I was a foreman for the SoCal Gas Company. So, I did that for several years. Foreman ran my own truck, had a crew, was a welder. At the same time I was doing that, I was also investing. I was a wholesaler. I transitioned from it's a long story of transitioning from wholesaling, flipping mobile homes into notes, still have some of those notes, flipping land, Rawvik and land into notes, you have the cheap Rawvik and land model that a lot of people do today. Trying to just build a volume business out of that, but then slowly moved out of it. And then at the same time, while I was doing that, I was a copywriter, I had my own info publishing business, I was a copywriter for carrot.com for a bit and doing client work for people like Ryan Dossi. Now I'm just now I'm Ballpoint Marketing, Culp Porter, Ryan Dossi brands, that's like my main clients, my main companies I work with right now. So as far as copy goes for real estate investors, that's pretty much been my There's several different copywriters in the world, there's people who in a financial niche, health niche. Real estate investing has been my prime niche in terms of coaching as well as just lead acquisitions as well, but I don't I don't really do. People might ask to do some copy for lead generation. I don't really do that just because and we will talk about tips for that because it's very simple to do, and and I'll give some lay down some some framework for that. But mainly working with Ryan Doss, CCF, Ballpoint, and my own brand where we help investors build their own follow-up marketing, reiamnidrip.com.

Paul DoCampo: [3:25] So yeah, that's my sixth year. I started back in 2015, so that is kinda short, you know, story of the last six, seven years of investing in a mix of copywriting and all that, so.

Dan Austin: [3:38] That's when you started actually copywriting, was 2015, or everything?

Paul DoCampo: [3:42] Everything, like so, yeah, I got into, in 2015, I jumped into wholesaling by accident, had the opportunity to write for Carrot. Really, it was just pure accident and then really enjoyed the whole art of copywriting, learned more about it, probably got my first client maybe a couple years later. Besides Care, I got my first client a couple years later, and doing things related to it, creating info publishing business, selling real estate training videos and things like that. Yeah. And using it for my own investing business too. Had a land volume business that I transitioned into probably around 2018, 2019, I had my own land volume business.

Mike DeHaan: [4:19] Yeah. I mean, I'm impressed you're able to make that transitions from, I guess, being a a welder and being in that sort of line of work because, I mean, no, I guess, negative stuff to say about those guys. But, typically, like, swinging from something that's, like, a hammer swinging job or, like, a blue collar job to something that is as technical and sort of web based as it gets, which is copywriting is a huge left turn. Right. Because, I mean, even now, we have a lot of contracts and stuff that we use that can't figure out how to answer emails on their phone.

Dan Austin: [4:49] I would say even more. I I would say, like, on top of that, even more impressive, and I think part of the reason why I don't find it is typically when you're in a blue collar trade or you're in a trade or you're trading time for money and it's not a salaried position, it's typically I'm assuming as a welder for SoCalGas, you were part of the union and you were paid to show up and leave at a certain time. There's not a lot of squish squish room in there for you to

Mike DeHaan: [5:11] Yeah.

Dan Austin: [5:12] To take phone calls, to start your own site, to start your business until you clock out.

Paul DoCampo: [5:16] Right. You're absolutely 100% right, and that was one of the big reasons why I transitioned into land, because land is one of those business I don't know about today, but back in 2018, it was one of those businesses, one of those niches that I can send 500 letters out to landowners and probably don't even have to put my phone number in it, and I'd get signed contracts back, I'd get three to five contracts back in the mail. So it was just like a best place for me to be in right now because I couldn't really take calls. Yeah. I just wasn't working only your normal eight hour shift, I did a lot of on call shifts as well, so, you know, all nighters sometimes and into the morning, so and I said, be dead tired to do any kind of kinda

Mike DeHaan: [5:56] So I guess just to go back to what you're saying there really quick, you would literally just like send them a contract, you never even talked to them and they would just like sign it and send it back to you?

Paul DoCampo: [6:03] Yeah, like I said, I don't know how it is today, I mean it probably varies from market to market. I focus in on the mountain land because with land acquisitions, it's kind of flipped compared to single family where acquisitions is the easier parts, disposition selling it is the harder part of it, where now you gotta be more marketing savvy, you gotta build a buyers list. And so the raw vacant land I was dealing with was up in the mountains, and I chose that because it had the sexiness appeal of selling to city folks, because just the area I was in, I lived in this area, I knew this area really well, and so this is in Southern California, Inland Empire specifically, San Bernardino Mountains. And so, it had this kind of sexy appeal, you know, that you can have your own piece of land in the mountains, you could possibly build your own cabin someday out there. These are small lots, granted the government probably makes it impossible to build on it, but either way, there was still this appeal, this unknown mystery of having your own lot in the mountains. So, yeah, as far as acquisition goes on that, I mean, people don't really know what their land is worth, you know, especially when it's remote and obscure, like, they just they don't go out there. And so when you present to them that you're a real cash buyer, and I think that's key for anything really, that's having the confidence that you're a real cash buyer, that's through your marketing, that's through face to face, it just assures them that this deal is gonna go through. So I think I wrote a pretty good letter for that, and I guess now we're transitioning into copywriting, but that letter, I made sure that I was communicating that I'm local, I'm communicating that I'm a real buyer, that I'm credible, I would always link anything that's related to me, social media or a website or both. And so, yeah, just kinda clear out the objections of any kind of skepticism they feel. You know, these are real people we're writing to, so real people we're facing.

Paul DoCampo: [7:49] Today, there's there's so many scams, spams, and and so eliminating the skepticism is like a huge part of lead generation. So

Mike DeHaan: [7:59] Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That's so crazy though that it would turn that way, and I'd be interested to see how that would work, like, up here versus in Southern California because up up in Idaho, man, people's view on land is very different. Like, that is that usually their valuations are absurdly high even if it's a completely useless piece of land. And a lot of people, they'll kinda be wanna be opportunists, I guess. I can't say how many calls we get of like, oh, I got 50 acres. Like, I want a million dollars for it. And we're like, well, that doesn't make any sense. Like, but the timber on this is worth so much money. I'm like, well, then you better get chopping, buddy.

Dan Austin: [8:32] You better get chopping. Exactly.

Mike DeHaan: [8:34] Got a missed opportunity if you're gonna give it to me. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [8:36] They always wanna I mean, it's just like anybody that's trying to sell you on something. Right? They look at the world's rose colored glasses.

Paul DoCampo: [8:42] Yeah. So, I mean, I'm in Idaho now. So I'm a fellow Idaho or Pacific Northwest resident.

Mike DeHaan: [8:47] So As of for about one and a half weeks now?

Paul DoCampo: [8:50] About one and a half week, yeah.

Dan Austin: [8:52] Be careful, you'll get beat up for saying that in North Idaho.

Mike DeHaan: [8:55] Yeah, right, saying that you're an official resident, it's been that new, there's no way that's gonna apply.

Paul DoCampo: [9:00] Right, so I mean, we got hit with the snowstorm not too long ago, so coming from Southern California, I don't know what these white flakes coming from the sky is, know, I thought the world was ending, so yeah, people out here might value it a little bit more, but yeah, I think there's, I mean, I got out of it because, and it's probably a lesson for anybody here that I think the land, the old land, traditional land model, I think is kind of broken, and that is that land investors, the way I did it, they did everything solo, almost solo, and they had VAs. They had, for every single process of buying and selling land, they did it in house, when they didn't include real estate agents into the process to help sell the land. Selling land takes a huge burden, a huge amount of work. You're constantly dealing with tire kickers going back and forth. And so an easy, I did that all myself, getting cash buyer leads through my phone, dealing with, and these aren't cash buyers investors, you're dealing with Joe Schmuller lives down the street, the plumber lives down the street. And so you're getting 500 Texas a month on a specific land and they're all tire kickers. So the best way I think to do it when you're dealing with this type of model is actually go for higher priced lots and including a real estate agent. I mean, charge like $2,000 a pop, so I mean, it's well worth adding them into your process. So that's one of the biggest reasons I left land, it was just way too much work to do it solo, even with the VA, so.

Dan Austin: [10:23] Yep, that makes sense too, because even just listing properties, get a bunch of tire kickers, I can't imagine land and people just not even that interested, but they wanna see the opportunity, and to your point, you don't have anybody else on your team to take care of all the tire kickers.

Paul DoCampo: [10:37] Yeah, it's 10 times more than in single family, and then even if you put a, you know, people say, oh, let's get a VA in place, you can do that, but that, then you're adding that, the language barrier, you're adding that layer that, so yeah, you can do a VA, but you need to build a whole process for that, and then you need include management for that too, and you can't just, people think you just hire a VA and the problems go away, it doesn't do that, you guys know very well it doesn't do that. Now you need add management layer to that, so

Mike DeHaan: [11:00] Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But I know, yeah, that's it's yeah. The tire kickers I mean, yeah, just thinking about, like, talking about the the sellers with their view on, you know, like, the timber. I was chatting with a couple of land things that we have done, Dan. They've had a lot of weird stuff that's come on. And the I mean, the largest deal that we ever did, we wholesale the piece of land, and we made a very significant sum on it. But in order to get the deal done, we had to do all the due diligence for people Mhmm. And, like, start the process of, like, even getting the subplatting and all that sort of stuff done just to weed through the tire kickers or to entice the tire kickers because there was a lot of people that understood the potential there, but, like, they didn't necessarily know how to piece it together. So by us just sort of getting the train rolling, we were able to sell it for significantly more than it would have been if it was just like

Dan Austin: [11:44] I would add too in our market, there's some there's probably complexities in every market, but with ours, like, almost all of the vacant land near the city is already owned by somebody that has, like, legacy money is going to develop it. They'll just sit on it to avoid paying taxes or to avoid you from developing it. Like they're just like such large masses of families that own that land. And then if you get out into the outer skirts, a lot of it's farmland, which is more valuable in this region as farmland than it is as residential at this point in time, Then you go up north to Canadian border and that's where the crazy people are and those are the kind of people, they live up there for a reason and their land has more value, intrinsic value than you would think.

Mike DeHaan: [12:28] Yeah, right. So it's tough, it's a

Dan Austin: [12:30] tough land game in our market. It's not like that everywhere probably Exactly.

Mike DeHaan: [12:33] They live up there intentionally so that they can hide away when the lizard people come to steal everyone's livers or whatever they're gonna do. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [12:41] Yeah. Exactly.

Mike DeHaan: [12:42] Awesome. So so you got out of that and then I guess where'd you go from there? I know you were doing the land stuff. Did you ever, like, wholesale properties as well or were you just strictly doing that and then doing the land and then doing the copywriting work for Carrot?

Paul DoCampo: [12:55] Yeah. I was still flipping mobile homes Mobiles. Okay. When they come. Yeah. Mobile homes, I'm talking about in a park on leased land. So Yeah. Yes, you don't own the real estate.

Mike DeHaan: [13:04] You wanna buy one right now? We just got one in

Paul DoCampo: [13:06] your contract No. Dude, I'll sell it to you right

Dan Austin: [13:08] now. Yeah. Super fast.

Paul DoCampo: [13:11] Now, I wouldn't even take it for free. I think you have to pay pay me for it. Not to say that those assets aren't worth it, they definitely are because in cash flow, tremendous amount for a low amount front end cost and when I say cash flow, don't mean putting a rental in, although there's some people that do that. Rachel Hernandez, I think is her name, she's big into that, But I sold them as a note, so I'd sell it, seller finance, and collect on it. Really never had any issues, had a couple of them, you know, they can't pay, something happens, so you gotta take it back and resell it. But I mean, I don't do that quite a bit because I don't like the rehab process. So I think every investor here, everybody, there's a 100 different ways to get into real estate, I mean, more than that, mean, thousands of different ways to get into real estate and truly finding your stride, truly finding your flow to things, and I didn't like the rehab process, even because I think everybody should dive into the whole all the different personality tests and things like that, but I'm not great at management, I'm not great at creating processes for that. So the whole rehab process, even if you hire general contractor, which is extremely expensive in the mobile home space, just didn't really jive with me, I just hated it. So I realized I needed if I hate it, need to get out of it. So as an investor today, I'm just more of a private investor.

Dan Austin: [14:24] What attracted you initially to the mobile stuff, was it just the cash flow?

Paul DoCampo: [14:28] Yeah, so I originally got into real estate because of cash flow, I wanted to get cash flow. But Southern California is of a, is a very complex market when it comes to doing single family on your own, and wholesaling and all that. So the mobile home deals just kind of fall on your lap sometimes. If you're marketing, you're getting out there, they fall on your lap and then there was a couple individuals at the time that really bank on it, they taught me how to do it. And so I just tried it, jumped on it and collected on the cash flow, but hated the rehab process. There's ways around that, there's always ways around something, right? Tonya. If you hate the rehab process, you don't rehab. You buy it, you sell it as is, you know, you wholesale it, you, so there's definitely ways around it. Yeah, there's, like I said, thousand different ways to do what you wanna do that makes you feel comfortable and really leverages your strengths, so.

Mike DeHaan: [15:18] Yeah, I remember that was super big, like a number of years ago when I was first getting into real estate was, you heard tons of people that were doing, like, the different selling on terms of mobile homes and how much more cash flow. I mean, you could, like if you get it for, like, super cheap, like, $10, and you could sell it for $50 with, like, $10,000 down and 10% interest. I mean, I remember even actually early on in in CCF, we had a guy that came on and talked, and that was exclusively what he did. And because the cash flow was so much better. But it's funny because I feel like you don't hear about that too much anymore. Now now, like, the shtick that everyone goes to that I think is kind of a fad to try and pursue extra cash flow is like the Airbnb arbitrage stuff. Right? It's like the same sort of thing. It's like, oh, you don't actually have to put as much money into it. Can get it all back. You cash flow more. But same sort of thing. Like, we'll see how sustainable that really is over the long term just like with the the mobile stuff, but

Dan Austin: [16:07] Yeah. There's always a unique cash flow play. Right? Yeah. People are always looking for something and people always go underwater. I still like the mobile home thing is is a cash play. The thing I don't like about mobile homes is it goes against my real estate philosophy of of long term wealth building because a mobile home is depreciating and not wealth building. But if I was, like, hard up and just wanted cash flow, I'd go you could still go buy mobiles in a park for $10, put 10 in them, and then sell them on a note or keep them as a rental, but the Airbnb arbitrage, that's another one that we can Not an appreciating asset.

Paul DoCampo: [16:38] Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I think there's a thousand and one ways to do something, and there's, I don't think there's really anything new that comes into the scene. Everybody's looking for like a new game to play, but if somebody's done it in the past, it's just been exploited and leveraged in social media. Like I said, I think it's really just finding, it's finding what works in your market, I mean, you wanna work in your market or do virtual, I mean, that's another option, but what I did in Southern California is probably not gonna work in North Idaho, you know, so it's really leveraging what you're good at, what you enjoy, what your status is right now or what you're, today, I don't really care about cash flow. To me, I'm trying to leverage and grow wealth, just like you long term assets. So your stage and everything's gonna, within a span of five years, gonna completely change from the beginning to the end in what you do, so. Yeah. As I said, I'd done several different niches, like I was, right after land, was, you asked me what I did after land, I got into Infopublish, I had my own website that I was selling, I bought the rights to a real estate seminar, and I was selling that, that's when I really got in tune with my copywriting skills, so.

Dan Austin: [17:42] Gotcha. Awesome. Fascinating, a real estate seminar, so you can buy real estate seminars to sell, how did that work?

Paul DoCampo: [17:48] Well, yeah, I mean, it's kind of the same as real estate. So how I did it was I knew somebody, that's all. I mean, there's not like seminars for sale out there that you can, there might be if you can buy the license to it and stuff like that, but I knew this person, bought the rights to it because it wasn't doing anything, he wasn't doing anything with it, and I did some finishing editing touches to it, and then got the whole website going, got the whole, started the whole email marketing, everything, all the ads going for it and was selling it. Why it didn't continue with it? Because in this today, it's a lot harder to sell information if you're not a guru or coach. So that's why it was taking a lot more work and a lot more front end effort to acquire a customer, acquire a lead, not being not being a guru myself.

Dan Austin: [18:31] That's a good and I'm gonna go down a little rabbit hole here, because you kind of just piqued my interest when you talk about customer acquisition. I mean, you're doing land, you're doing mobiles, you're selling coaching, you're doing all these different niches, is that something that you've learned to focus on, that you have focused on, is that a metric, especially as you get into the copy space, like, what is good customer acquisition costs, and like, how do you track that and measure that?

Paul DoCampo: [18:52] Yeah, so this is something big we do within Ballpoint, within Call Porter, we're always looking at the cost, but yeah, mean, customer acquisition costs, just like in real estate, I mean, a lot of these things blend all these businesses blend together really, I mean, if you boil it down to the metrics, but customer acquisition costs, yeah, it's a huge metric that people look at, but it doesn't mean a high cost of a customer acquisition isn't a bad thing. What matters is is the back end of how much money you can make with that. Just like in real estate, the cost per acquisition doesn't really matter, it's what you can make out of that deal, so.

Dan Austin: [19:23] Right, yeah, right. So if it costs you a dollar to acquire a customer, but you make $2 on them, or maybe you could get what is the lifetime value of that customer, those sorts of things are the actual metrics that matter. And so, and I've heard, and I'm not an expert in this, but folks are saying hey, if a customer returns you a dollar, theoretically, you could spend 99¢ on that customer, right? You could spend all the way up to that, and then you can win at the scale game.

Paul DoCampo: [19:47] Right, but then you gotta look at, yeah, then you gotta scale that. Mean, to make Yeah, right. You gotta scale 1¢ profit margin.

Dan Austin: [19:53] But theoretically, right, you're profitable at that point, right?

Paul DoCampo: [19:56] Yeah. Not including overhead, not including Yeah. Everything else, so Yeah, you do wanna get deeper margins, course, but I'm more of a four quarters versus a 100 pennies guy, so a lot of people wanna do the whole volume game, scale as much as possible, their margins so they can add processes or lower the cost of things, but it really depends on what you can handle in life, what you wanna deal with. Me personally, I don't have employees, I have VAs, I have a couple VAs under me, all under an ad agency, by the way. I don't go out and try to farm my own VAs, I have an agency I have relationship with, and they supply me with VAs whenever they want, whenever I want, I should say.

Mike DeHaan: [20:37] Whenever they want, here. Whenever they want, here.

Paul DoCampo: [20:39] We need take this new VA. You can Please, they to get paid. That's funny. So you can have employees if you enjoy that part, include processes, you know, but it's what you want wanna handle in life. So there's a million one ways to do things.

Mike DeHaan: [20:53] Yeah. Well, I I I think the big big sort of things being said here is that regardless of what you're trying to do, whether you're trying to find, you know, off market properties, you're trying to sell real estate seminars, you're trying to find copywriting clients, the general philosophy behind finding leads is somewhat the same. You know, you can run a lot of systems with virtual assistants. You can automate a lot of the processes. And, you know, at the core of it, though, one of the big things that is important is the sales copy. Right? And, like, why your why your value proposition is the one that they should consider. So let's dive into that a little bit and just sort of here I guess, like, if you have any main notes for just general copy good practices, and then how exactly you do the copy and and Sharjah for the different follow ups and and other Yeah. Other sort of drip campaigns and things that you create.

Paul DoCampo: [21:44] Definitely. Yeah. So that's a big hang up for real estate investors. In this industry, it seems to be that a lot of investors aren't writers or they think they are, so they make it a little more complex than what it really is, especially when it comes to lead generation. And really, lead generation for acquisitions in real estate, you're not trying to convince anybody to sell. You're not trying to do any of that as opposed to like you're in the financial niche and you're just trying to sell this new newsletter, this new supplement. Yeah, you're trying to convince them to buy that. But in real estate, all you're doing is you're digging through the hay, you're looking for that one person who's a seller and interested in a cash offer, that's really it. That's why lead generation copy has been so simple throughout the years, because you're not trying to accomplish anything except you're trying to look for a seller. I remember years ago, this gal came to me, she was cold calling, and she was having a lot of trouble. She said to me, I can't find a deal with these cold calling lists. And I told her, you're kinda looking at this ass backwards here. When it comes to cold calling, when it comes to mailing, door knocking, whatever it is, you're not looking for a deal. There's no deal there yet. You're not looking for any deals.

Paul DoCampo: [22:53] All you're looking to do find a seller so you can grow a relationship with them, put them into your system, So keep following up with as far as actual copy within lead generation, we will just keep it simple. The number two things that I try to employ into all of them is I'm trying to break a couple objections. One is that we're not a national type of home buyer. Mean, there's some plays you can do there. If you actually are, you don't wanna lie, that's fine. But if you are local or somewhat local, you have boots on the ground, communicating that you're local is a big plus for sellers. Sellers love that. Mike, you and I talked about this, I think what you do is fantastic. You actually put something in there that shows them proof that you're actually local. And proof is a big thing in copy. Proof is always talked about in copy, showing proof, social proof.

Mike DeHaan: [23:41] Yeah. And I guess just to say, so to emphasize on that, what that social proof means is it's not even anything crazy. Like, we'll even just, like, reference, like, a recent snowstorm that we just had that everyone here universally experienced that a home buyer from Texas probably didn't even realize happened. You know? But the funny thing is we'll do the same thing in our virtual markets too. So, like Mhmm. We're sending, I don't know, some letter to Jacksonville, Florida, you know, I'll go and I'll Google before I put together the, you know, the marketing campaign, oh, current things that happen in Jacksonville, Florida. It's like, oh, no way. You know, the Florida state, not if not even Florida state's there, is like ranked number one, like, that's cool, let's make a reference about that because there's a or like something something that's like somewhat relevant to the people there.

Dan Austin: [24:24] Something that's huge into that into that market, right? One thing that I would ask on this is why, because sometimes there is great social proof in a national brand, so what would I be missing if, you know, like a good example would be, I'm driving down the road here in Spokane and I see a We Buy Houses billboard, and then I'm gonna go drive through another city, I'm gonna see that same billboard, I'm like, damn, that's a big company. And then they send me a letter, is that bad? Like, is that the what's the difference between national and local that scale, at that level? Is that am I missing something?

Paul DoCampo: [24:53] I don't think that's I mean, I've never tested it. I don't think anybody's tested this. I mean, testing this stuff is people talk about split testing and testing is incredibly hard to do, to get statistical significance, right, so people think they can send a thousand mailers and split test it and they have results, but that's not a split test. So I think the biggest thing that, even if you're national or local, that you're trying to break down is whether or not you're credible. Especially today, the skepticism runs pretty high with everybody right now, that's why I think text messaging, a cold text messaging methods are their responses are turning low right now. And a lot has to do with it, you know, that you gotta keep turning new numbers, right? But I think just because more and more people become skeptical. And if you can show them that you actually are person, there's a real person behind there, that I think a local play just breaks that objection down that if you're credible or not. So I think that's the biggest key, really trying to communicate that you're credible.

Mike DeHaan: [25:52] Yeah. And I think that's gonna be highly market dependent, you know, based off of the general seller population. So for example, for us in Eastern Washington, Northern Idaho, there's generally an aversion to people that aren't from the local area. You know, people are always bitching about people from Seattle moving here, people from California, people from wherever. Sorry, Paul. But, you know, it's like it's something that they have like, they push back against that. Right? They don't want that to happen. So as a result, they try to support local endeavors, local businesses. You know? And I think that the typical seller population, the motivated seller population is gonna be on that, you know, leaning that way even harder because they're gonna typically be lower education, maybe a little bit more what's the right word? Like, inflammatory type of individuals. But when we you know, we have, like, our national brand that we use for a lot of our stuff, and we found that going to, like, Chicago, for example, when you're doing deals in the out of Chicago for a while, they didn't care at all because it's such like a metropolitan sort of area that if you're a larger company that's coming there, they're like, all the big companies do stuff in Chicago. But, you know,

Dan Austin: [26:52] they're used to that big brand.

Mike DeHaan: [26:53] Exactly. But, like, a big brand coming and all of sudden doing things in Post Falls, Idaho, they're like, no one gave a shit about Post Falls until eighteen months ago. So like, why

Paul DoCampo: [27:03] COVID hit.

Mike DeHaan: [27:04] Yeah. Exactly. Right.

Paul DoCampo: [27:06] So I think that's a huge point. Industry to industry, business to business, there are these principles that just that cover just about everything. And what you're talking about here is market research. And that's huge in copy. In copywriting, market research, market research, everybody talks about it. To be a great copywriter, have to have be a phenomenal researcher. But what you're you're talking about the same thing here. Going from, you know, you wanna be a virtual virtual wholesaling was was kinda sexy a few years ago. I mean, it still is, but because they think you don't have to meet anybody face to face. But there's still this component that if you don't do it, I think a lot of people are lazy. A lot of people are lazy about it. Is actually researching the market that you're gonna be buying it. I mean, even if it's, Oh, I'm not gonna be actually buying it, I'm just assigning the contract. Well, you're gonna put all that effort into marketing, all that effort into getting boots on the ground, or if you're gonna do boots on the ground. And then you don't research what people feel, what are they getting right now, what kind of marketing efforts are there in play right now, how people feel, how people talk, and what cash buyers want, that's another big thing, what do cash buyers want in that market?

Paul DoCampo: [28:07] So research is huge, Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [28:09] Yeah. And that's getting into the sales process too, especially talking about, like, you know, how the local population talks and all that sort of stuff. So I have, like, Gomira in Chicago, the kind of people that would be calling in, they have the foulest language, like, on every call. Because, like, that's kind of the way that they talk to each other there, especially with the general population that we are marketing to. And it's funny because the sales manager that we had there, he wasn't super comfortable with that. He was kinda like a clean-cut sort of reserved guy. And you have these Chicago callers in that are like, who the fuck is this? You know, and they're like getting all after like You gotta match it. Yeah. You know, you gotta match it though. You gotta mirror that, and that's sales.

Paul DoCampo: [28:44] Yeah. And that's look. If you're gonna be communicating your local, and then, like, these people are gonna be able to notice if you're not from there or not. Totally. So if you're gonna be communicating your local, and all of a sudden, you're you're talking like a square from from over here Especially. California, they're they're gonna notice that from a mile away, so. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [29:00] And that's huge with people that use, like, cold callers and other sort of outreach as well. One of the things that we find and people do this over and over again here. I don't know why they keep trying it, and then they always say, like, well, well, my cold callers aren't performing very well in Idaho. It's because you're having someone from The Philippines call.

Dan Austin: [29:15] Right.

Mike DeHaan: [29:15] And I'm sorry, but people from Idaho, they do not want Yes. Anything to do with from The Philippines. Hello.

Dan Austin: [29:20] Hello, miss mister DeHaan? Is this mister DeHaan? It's like, no.

Mike DeHaan: [29:23] Yeah. Exactly. You gotta pick up

Dan Austin: [29:25] the phone. Hey. Hey, you fucking hillbilly. You wanna sell me your house? Yeah. That's how they're gonna do it.

Mike DeHaan: [29:31] Yeah. But I'd to be completely honest, see, you you use that same person in, say, Seattle where there's a large Asian population, like Absolutely. So that's gonna respond a lot better and and, you know, that can be reflected in your in your different marketing tactics, your copy, all that sort of stuff. So,

Paul DoCampo: [29:47] Yeah, definitely. For copy, I think, you know, where does copy come into play? We talked about it here in lead generation, right? Sales process, it's all this, I mean, sales copy, it's everything blends together, really. Yeah. It's all context, it's all market, but I think for copy tactics, do more so in the follow-up marketing part of it, the whole drip part of it, which is what we create, which I created a brand called Omnidrip, reiomnidrip.com, and that's where I employ a little bit more copy tactics and principles and marketing principles too. There's a whole there's a whole philosophy to how I do it and looking at it more like a funnel. I know you guys have you guys have a pretty solid follow-up on your end. You guys have your own tactics and philosophy that you've employed, so yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [30:30] Yeah. So why don't I dive into that though? You're you're Omnidrip company? About what exactly that is?

Paul DoCampo: [30:35] Yeah. Yeah. So we build drip follow-up messages, emails, SMS, voicemail scripts for investors. Most of the people that have dived into it are people who have a team, who have a brand, not so much new investors, but I mean, they could still join my list and get a look at how we do it. But thing about today is the old system of follow-up marketing, investors still do today is they employ an old folder system, which is the hot, cold, and warm bucket type of follow-up. I mean, works, that does work today, but if you have a lot of leads coming in, that becomes a little confusing. And today, what I've used for follow-up is what I've used for e commerce businesses, for the coaching business, etcetera, where it's event based triggers. So how I look at it in real estate is that everything's a funnel. You have your leads coming in, you have at the bottom, you have your deal closed. But within those, and I have a whole demo that explains this, but within those, you have different events where a seller can go off. They can sell to somebody else, or sign with somebody else, they can tell you that your offer's too low. All these are events that trigger a specific problem or pain point that you can leverage in your copy. See, what people have trouble with, investors have trouble with, is coming up with follow-up messages that are bigger or more grandiose, I can say, than are you still interested in selling? I look at their messages and that's what they repeat throughout, variations of are you still looking to sell, are still looking to sell? But this gets into copy, where a cash offer can mean a 100 different things for somebody.

Paul DoCampo: [32:10] And this is where in copy principles, you have features and benefits. This is like the most basic instruction for copywriting, is you have features and benefits. Cash offer is a feature, but what does that mean for a seller? It can mean a 100 different things. A cash offer means that they can sell their house and leave all their things behind. That actually was a big thing for me. I had so much junk when I moved from California to Idaho, and getting rid of that stuff is a pain in the ass, you know? So that could be a huge benefit for a seller. So there's about a dozen different benefits that a cash offer can accomplish for it. Depending on where they're at in the stage of a drip follow-up marketing, that's where you start leveraging these things. Depending on what kind of lead it is, it could be a vacant house lead, landlord with tenants, owner occupant, each one of those have problems and pain points that are specific to them and where the other lead has no idea what they're dealing with. So yeah, there's so many things in follow-up marketing within copy that we can talk about that's more than just asking the question, are you still interested to sell you? We're leveraging benefits, we're leveraging all the different features, we're leveraging the pain points that that seller is going through within the stage of their cycle. So I I can talk a lot about more, I know you got limited time here. We could talk about more about what we do with SMS, with email, and all that, and the 10,000 foot view of of follow-up marketing.

Paul DoCampo: [33:26] Yeah. But it's up to you, man, if we have time for that.

Mike DeHaan: [33:28] Yeah. Yeah. We can dive into it a little bit, and, you know, we can we can just check out some stuff in the middle if if we go a little bit long. But I guess so just to reemphasize what you're saying, basically, what you do is you look at the different motivation that people have. And with your with the REI OmniDrip Mhmm. Program, you help build custom follow ups for the different situations that people have that are also specific to people's sort of like markets and businesses. Is that correct?

Paul DoCampo: [33:55] Yeah. Sort of. So ideally, I mean, it's not so much like motivation. It's not so much like if it's a tax default and all that because when you start looking at different lists like tax default, bankruptcy, etcetera, they kind of, I mean the motivations aren't necessarily the thing that's causing it, The motivations and then the solutions that you bring are kind of the same throughout the table. Yeah. What I look at more is, so events, so a missed call is an event, right? So that's a sequence of messages that that where the call to action for a missed call is getting them back on the phone with you. Them rejecting your offer, that's an event. Rejecting your offer for a specific reason, they're fixing themselves, right? I've gotten that quite a bit. Hey, your offer's too low, I'm just gonna go fix the house myself. Well, that is a prime opportunity to leverage problems that they're gonna encounter later on and be a source of value for them because you could also, I mean, especially if you have a site, you have articles that you can link them to, you have to show them that you're a credible source, that you're an expert, you're an authority leader on the topic. It's more of a, for me it's more, it's a holistic approach to marketing. It's not just getting a response with that message, it's also, am I building credibility, am I building authority ship with this messaging? It's a little bigger than just getting a response.

Paul DoCampo: [35:11] But to answer your question, yeah, I usually, what we do is we have about 20 different sequences that each cover a point in a seller's phase. Even after the deal's closed, a lot of people have trouble getting testimonials, well, we created a sequence for that. Now, not everybody, you guys are a lot simpler than that, a lot of people want simpler, and that's fine. I just, I've created sequences pretty much when requested, and when it fits, so.

Dan Austin: [35:37] Yeah, I really like that. I think this is one of those things where we have to remember in our follow-up, there's things you can do that help, and things that you do that hurt. A simple text message response can be very can hurt the relationship. You know, I've been guilty of hurting the relationship many a times, and so I like the idea of having somewhat canned scripts. And I'm gonna take a shot across the bow here and ask you this, it's like, so are you using AI, NFT, Bitcoin enabled texting engines to do this, or is this actual like human touch, and like actual things a human would say?

Paul DoCampo: [36:11] No, so, no, no, I know. So how, you're asking how am I scaling this, basically?

Dan Austin: [36:16] Well, I'm just asking like, so what happens, what I see a ton of times with these like, people that wanna do texting campaigns, or calling campaigns, or any marketing campaign, they always say we have like this cool AI system in the background, which is trying to come up with the canned responses, which are shit because they're not good, or it's somebody from The Philippines going off of a simple responses, which you you said earlier. Are you still interested in selling, sir? And it's like, that does not work for a lot of reasons.

Paul DoCampo: [36:45] Right, so AI is getting pretty huge, copywriters use AI. A lot of copywriters are afraid it's gonna take their jobs, it's not gonna take their jobs. But copywriters use AI to make writing faster, and there are platforms now coming out for investors where you send out mail and it says, text us for an offer, you text back and it's AI generated. I've seen them firsthand, I don't know, I think I have a long ways to go, but there'll probably be somewhere out there. AI's growing fast, it really is. Now, am I using AI? No, I'm not using AI for this. This is I've no, I've carefully written every message myself, I've created variations of it, and and so we have we we and my team actually places it in their CRM for them. So it's not like another subscription or anything like that, it's just a one time thing, a one time fee, they pay, my team puts them into their CRM. How it's generated is I have a bank of variations for each message, and I try to make every message agnostic so that it doesn't collide with conversations you might be having with people. So it's just mainly bringing up a pain point, not so much, I don't wanna talk about like, hey, we heard you just got divorced, how about selling your house? You know, like, sound right. You know, some kind of bullshit thing like that, but no, but it's bringing up solutions. My whole principle, philosophy for real estate copy is I try to put at least one, usually I stick with one, one benefit to each message, whether it be front end lead generation, back end lead generation. I try to put at least one benefit if it's not like a blaming I do have questions, are you still interested in selling?

Paul DoCampo: [38:17] I have those where they fit, but it's probably like one or two out of every sequence. But every other one is I have at least one benefit because I'm remind, like I said, a cash offer can mean a 100 different things. I'm trying to remind them of what we can offer for them.

Mike DeHaan: [38:33] So when you say like one benefit, like what exactly are you, like give me one example.

Paul DoCampo: [38:38] Yeah. So so I have a landlord. So I I do segment. Some sequences, I do segment. Meaning, offer too I keep bringing this up because that's what I have in mind. Have a few others, but offer too low. I have a owner occupant sequence for that. I have a landlord and I have a tenant. I'm sorry, not tenant. Landlord, tenants vacant. The vacant person, he's gonna have certain problems that have to do with house deteriorating, finding a buyer, not being able to get a loan on it. So a solution to that we offer is we can buy it as is, right? So without making any repairs, I can buy with one appointment, right? So a lot of people can buy with just one appointment or one inspection. So that's a benefit, a solution, so that I remind them the message, hey, Hey, John. I'm just a reminder that I wish I I don't have them up right now, but, hey, this is a reminder. We can buy your house as is. I know that it's been x amount of days, but as time goes by, the house is deteriorating and we can buy it as is right now for a top cash offer. I mean, I just threw that up on the spot. That's an actual message. Text messaging, copy. Text messaging, copy, I try to keep it as short as possible. I try to actually, like, for some messages, actually have deliberate typos. That way that it looks like it's still coming from the actual person. I eliminate words as long as it makes sense because, again, shortness of SMS copy is pretty important for me, pretty important for SMS copy in general, keeping it short and brief and snappy too.

Paul DoCampo: [40:01] So if I'm bringing up a solution or I'm bringing up a benefit, like, can pull some up. I wasn't prepared for doing this, but let me pull let me pull something up here. You guys can edit this out while I'm searching for something here.

Mike DeHaan: [40:13] Yeah. No. It's good, man. I like to I'm testing your expertise here. Yeah.

Dan Austin: [40:19] Right on the spot, live.

Mike DeHaan: [40:20] Right on the spot, live. Pulling up literal examples from reiomnidirect.com. Yeah.

Paul DoCampo: [40:28] So there's a sequence that that a lot of people like, which is they signed with somebody someone else. So let me wait for that one to come up here.

Mike DeHaan: [40:36] Yeah. The biggest solution to that is you just go and you try to get them to sign with you anyway at a better price and then just try to close before the other wholesaler. That's That's never happened to us. Yeah. That that's never happened to us ever. Yeah. Okay.

Paul DoCampo: [40:49] So, well, you know, now that you bring this up, I I should say this, that what I've designed doesn't remove manual follow-up. That's like a big component. I mean, I I'm not trying to remove manual follow-up. What I'm trying to do is take away some of the heavy lifting away from it. There are tasks that there's probably every three, four, depending on depending on the context, depending on the sequence, there are actual tasks to follow-up, and there's voice mail scripts that are, like, pertinent to positioning of the step. But I might say, hey, John, we're letting you know we're buying a house very close to your vacant property if you change your mind about our repair free offer. So when I say our repair free offer, that's a benefit right there. It's subtle, it's very sly. It's a reminder, hey, it's repair free. It's reminding them about the repairs and they make it a vacant house to actually put it on the market. It's not fear mongering, it's just stating

Mike DeHaan: [41:42] a fact.

Paul DoCampo: [41:43] Being top of mind and it's the, there's like this, you know, when you hear the hidden messages behind, you know, commercials and stuff like that.

Mike DeHaan: [41:51] So like the subliminal message.

Paul DoCampo: [41:52] Yes, there we go, there we go. It's not subliminal, it's there, but it's reminding them, alright, I gotta fix this house, I gotta get this house in the market if I wanna sell, I to actually make it lending approval. So yeah, it's these different subtle benefits to this vacant house. Let me scan through here, I mean, I have voicemail scripts as well, This is an actual live actual live person I'm reading through. This is his messaging. Is code enforcement leaving notices every month at your at your vacant property? Our cash offer takes care of that. Text us for a new cash offer. This is deep into it already. They haven't responded, and you're sending this to try to get another response.

Mike DeHaan: [42:28] So the

Paul DoCampo: [42:28] point of that one is to get a response. Text us for a new cash offer.

Mike DeHaan: [42:32] And I think I think that's kind of the key with a lot of this though too is, like you said there, is to get a response. And ultimately, and this is what we always talk. He'll be one of interested investor program as well. The number one indicator on if you're gonna get a deal is their willingness to communicate with you. They wanna have an open conversation. More so than their motivation, more so than the situation with the house, the house condition, anything like that. If they're willing to have a conversation, that is what you need to get a deal done. And with these different sort of drip campaigns, stuff like that, it's the hope is to reignite a conversation that's probably gone stale.

Paul DoCampo: [43:05] One of the principles too as well is to erase your your value that you're bringing, and what I mean by that is inside of a holistic marketing plan that we do for, I do for Ballpoint, Call Porter, whatever e commerce business I've been involved, we do want them to be in our world, and what I mean by that is, it's not just a one single lane of marketing that we do. Right? That single lane of marketing, we wanna transcend into them going into our website as well. So in our in some of the almost all the drips, in the beginning, I'm trying to also sell sell the click, that's a common phrase in in marketing, sell the click to get them back to the website. So I might have something so if it's a sequence that's that's about repairs, like so the vacant sequence, the vacant house lead sequences, you know, repairs come into mind. So I have articles that talk about fixing a vacant house. Well, I wanna drive them over from the text message to website because that is, if that's accomplished, if they actually click and drive it over to the website, that's actually two touch points I hit them with. Because remember, we talk about touch points in marketing, you have multiple days, they used to say seven but it's actually a lot more than that these days. You need multiple touch points, well that's two touch points I've created for them and that also increased my credibility, They went on my website and it's instilling the idea that, hey, this guy's a real person, he actually has a website, he's credible, he actually has information, he has valuable information here for me. So, and then if you do really advanced, it's not really advanced, but if you're doing retargeting ads, you just landed that person on your website to add them to your retargeting list.

Dan Austin: [44:44] Yeah, totally. I was just thinking that as you're talking through them, like boom, there's your third touch

Paul DoCampo: [44:47] Right? Yes. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [44:48] Exactly. Your third, fourth, and fifth, and sixth while you show a bunch of them over the next week.

Paul DoCampo: [44:52] Right.

Mike DeHaan: [44:52] Yeah. Exactly. But awesome. That's all good stuff, Paul. So we gotta start winding down here. So we're gonna jump into our our final questions here. So first question, and I'm not sorry. You probably should have given you time to prepare for this one because sometimes people come up with good stories after we ask it. But what is your craziest real estate investing story? And this can be a good story, bad story, and you being the land flipper and mobile home flipper, I'm sure you have a couple good ones.

Paul DoCampo: [45:20] Mobile homes, yeah, you're gonna find. So there was a mobile home lead and I and this one still reeks in the back of my mind, no pun intended on this, but mobile home lead, nice area, this is Orange County, Orange County's

Dan Austin: [45:35] They have mobile

Paul DoCampo: [45:36] home And then in this was your last one,

Dan Austin: [45:38] the last one of Orange County.

Mike DeHaan: [45:41] That they knocked down and put a $1,500,000 house on.

Paul DoCampo: [45:44] And it was an elderly couple. They lived together in one mobile home, she owned the other mobile home next door, but her cats lived in it. That's the one she was selling. Alright? She had about 10 cats living in it. The cats also used it as their toilet inside. So yeah, so she wanted me to check it out. I went in and there is cat shit piled in every corner. She said this has been like this for five years. Oh my So mobile home's usually like the side door, you walk in and it's the washing machine or the mudroom, whatever. So I walked through that, went to the hallway, I just said, okay, I'm good, I had enough. I'm trying to be polite about it, know? I go, you don't wanna see the rest house? No, I'm good.

Dan Austin: [46:27] You're like, I saw what I need to see.

Paul DoCampo: [46:29] This is good enough. I mean, was, I saw what I need to see. There was cat shit in every single corner. It was the worst smell, stench I've ever smelled in my life. It was probably a rotting cat somewhere there too. Yeah. Like I said, she had 10 cats,

Mike DeHaan: [46:42] so Oh my god.

Paul DoCampo: [46:43] Yeah, so that was, I still have that stench burning my nostrils, that's probably the worst one I've ever been to. I've been in cockroach infested mobile homes too, but in broad daylight where you step in, they're everywhere, they're every, yeah, so.

Mike DeHaan: [46:59] Man, that lady was taking like a cat condo though to the next level. Literally had like a single wide for all of her cats.

Dan Austin: [47:05] A cat condo to the next she took it to a lower level. A cat condo would be nice compared to a cat trailer. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [47:11] Right. Right.

Paul DoCampo: [47:12] Right. So I didn't buy that one if anyone's No. I didn't I did not buy that one. She wanted 10,000 for it. So yeah. No. And even the the mobile the park didn't didn't that's another obstacle, mobile home flipping is you have to deal with the park. Sometimes the park didn't even wanna sell it, they felt like it was a hazard, so no shit, you know, so. Alright. Yeah. Alright, so they hauled off, they trashed it and they put a new one in, so.

Mike DeHaan: [47:37] And that's now, cats got an upgrade. They still live there.

Paul DoCampo: [47:40] Yeah, exactly. They live there, right? They left the cats and all, you know, you get the bonus and upgrade with all that, so.

Mike DeHaan: [47:45] Oh my god, that's funny. Man, that's that's a good one. I haven't heard that one before. Me neither. Alright, next question, and I think it's little more specific for you. What is the number one copywriting tip you would give for a new investor looking to, I guess, start finding deals or an experienced investor looking to increase their use of copy in their business?

Paul DoCampo: [48:06] That's a good one. We've talked a lot about copy already.

Mike DeHaan: [48:08] I want, like, the number one tip that someone can take away from listening to this podcast and go and do something immediately.

Paul DoCampo: [48:15] Yeah, I would say stop talking like you're from the HR department, okay? So whenever you're writing copy, this goes along with email, when you're writing to an agent's list, you want get pocket deals or you're writing to your cash buyers, just write casual, write like you talk, that's a common actual cop, that's a common saying is write like you talk and really do beat I get it across the table all the time, these people that are trying to sound professional, this is the way you're supposed to sound, sound like you're from the HR department, just eliminate all that and just write like you talk. So that's my one number one tip.

Dan Austin: [48:49] That's great advice. Yeah. I like that.

Mike DeHaan: [48:51] I think that's super huge.

Paul DoCampo: [48:53] Not not super sexy, but

Mike DeHaan: [48:55] Yeah. I mean, I always do that with our sales guys as well, as I've said in the past, is like when they're doing texting follow-up, I mean, apparently people fall into the zone of, like, just wanna go say, oh, yeah. Are you ready to reconsider our offer? It's like, no. Just, check-in, like, at you know, reach out to them about whatever situation was that you built rapport with them about and just do, a check-in and treat it that way as opposed to trying to make it immediately transactional.

Paul DoCampo: [49:16] Right.

Mike DeHaan: [49:16] Or trying to be too formal about it. I mean, who texts somebody that says, hello, mister seller, comma, return?

Dan Austin: [49:23] Notwithstanding the weather today.

Mike DeHaan: [49:25] Yeah. How are you? Yes. Exactly. This is Mike with, one two three properties and I just wanted to re inquire about your property at ABT, you know, that's like all my Yeah. No one texts like that or communicates like that. Right. Nobody that would

Paul DoCampo: [49:40] know? Nobody puts proper grammar, nobody puts the comma in there, you know? It's just, like, just let it go, the flow, just like as if you're talking to your buddy. With context, of course, right? You know, they don't look at you as your buddy, but, you know, the way you talk, you know?

Mike DeHaan: [49:54] Yeah, absolutely. Agreed. Cool, great advice. Alright. Last question. Where can people find you, follow along, and reach out to you if you'd like them to do so?

Paul DoCampo: [50:03] Definitely. Yeah. Just go to my website, and I'm gonna put your your link here so they can get free samples of my of what I offer. Reiomnidrip.com/keys. If you go there, there'll be free samples

Mike DeHaan: [50:17] Perfect.

Paul DoCampo: [50:17] Of some sequences. They can get a demo of how to how all this works. They can get started on that. So

Mike DeHaan: [50:23] Perfect. Alright, guys. So go check out reiomnigrip.com/keys, and you can see some free samples of all of the professionally copywritten follow-up and drip sequences that we talked about today. So awesome. Well, thanks so much, Paul, for hopping on. Thanks so much for listening, guys. And if you wanna learn how to find off market deals, you can go check out instantinvestorprogram.com, and Dan and I will teach you exactly how to do it. And we are probably gonna start using Paul's different secret this year very shortly because tell you what, anything we can do to just simplify the follow-up process a little bit gonna be huge.

Dan Austin: [50:55] So Get an edge, simplify it,

Paul DoCampo: [50:57] delegate it. I love it.

Mike DeHaan: [50:59] Awesome. Well, thanks so much, guys, and thanks, Paul, for hopping on. And we'll talk to guys next week.

Paul DoCampo: [51:02] Thanks, Paul. Thank you.

Speaker 2: [51:04] Thanks for listening. Please leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you get your and check us out at collectingkeyspodcast.com for tips and guides on starting your own real estate investment and wholesaling business.