Becoming a Cash Flow Master with Drew Wiard

Drew Wiard: [0:00] From the high level, I'm a passive income guy. That is my thing. I see a lot of people who do direct to seller marketing, and they want to do all the flips and all the transactional pieces and parts of it, and I have nothing against that. I think that's a great way to make a living and all of that, but my goal is to choose whether or not to work every single day. And as you guys know, this business is a crapload of work. It's one of the hardest of all the types of investing that we've done.

Speaker 2: [0:29] Welcome to the Collecting Keys Real Estate Investing Podcast with your host, Mike DeHaan and Dan Austin. From wins, losses, horror stories, and tactics for optimizing your business, Mike and Dan take a real uncensored deep dive into the ins and outs of running a full time real estate investment and wholesaling business.

Mike DeHaan: [0:52] What's going on, guys? In this episode of the collect Keats real estate investing podcast. We have a good friend of ours, Drew Wiard, whose name I learned I have been saying wrong for, like, the several years that I've known him. So it is spelled kinda weird.

Dan Austin: [1:04] Yeah. You're an you're an asshole.

Mike DeHaan: [1:05] I am. I'm I'm not good at names, apparently. But Drew is, like, is such an incredible investor. And we just finished up the show, and it's hard for Dan and I to not be inspired. And I'm sure you will be inspired as well if you listen to So inspired. The story that he has, how he's built his life, how he has built such an incredible sort of like mindset around business and incredible real estate portfolio. He owns a business. He did most of it over the last seven years, which is a pretty short time frame while working a full time job, being a family man. He's just like the epitome of, I guess, who everyone who wants to get into business and live like a good life wants to be. They wanna be like Drew.

Dan Austin: [1:45] Yeah. I think Drew's he's done it all. And like you said, in seven years, he's financially free, left his w two. He's still working his tail off buying all sorts of stuff and all sorts of asset classes. What I love about him is, throughout the episode, he probably has like four or five one liners that I wrote them down. I don't know what I'm gonna do with them, but they're so inspiring. Like, he just kills it. Like, one of them was, I have the one thing most investors don't, and that's Amazing.

Mike DeHaan: [2:09] I mean, and that is such a healthy way to look at it, to avoid the constant Mhmm. Like, mental battles, comparison battles that so many of us that are entrepreneurs have when you're looking at the next guy up from where you are. And the crazy thing is too is he'll even slipped him little things like like, he's not necessarily crushing it. As he says, he's like, me and Mike has got like a 6,000 square foot house. Like, it's pretty. I was like, what? And sure. Yeah, super humble. Very humble.

Dan Austin: [2:35] He is very humble.

Mike DeHaan: [2:36] Really awesome stuff. So anyways, guys, hope you enjoy the interview with Drew. Also, definitely give him a follow on Instagram afterwards. Like he's a good follow and he posts lots of great content.

Dan Austin: [2:46] And as he does,

Mike DeHaan: [2:47] you wanna connect with him at all too, go ahead and shoot him a DM. I know that he's super friendly and loves to chat with people. So when he's at was at the flying investors But his aside from that, guys, if you want to start generating off market leads like Dan and I do, and like Drew does, he runs a really similar business to us in Fort Wayne, Indiana. You can go to collectingkeyspodcast.com/free and get our free five step guide to start generating off market leads, and that will get you started right away. Aside from that, guys, enjoy the show with Drew. And, have a

Dan Austin: [3:17] good one. See you. On the

Mike DeHaan: [3:19] show today, we have Drew Wiard, who is probably one of my favorite people that I've ever connected with in the real estate space because he is like the definition of the million next door, not just sort of in how he lives his life, but also till you meet him, and you're like, this guy's awesome, super relatable. And you are doing so many unbelievable things as you're someone who has, like, just quit your w two not that long ago. So, Drew, for those who are unfortunate enough to not have heard about you before, how you doing, man? Thanks for coming on the show, and and what all do you have going on? Give us, like, the quick breakdown just to blow people away.

Drew Wiard: [3:56] Yeah, absolutely. Well, for having me on. I appreciate the chance to come hang out with you guys. We've hung out in person, that's always a good time, but we live on opposite ends of the country, so it's nice to connect. So me in a nutshell, I'm 41 and I used to practice medicine, I was a pharmacist, and then moved into hospital leadership, and I did that for fifteen years, and just this past year retired from my W-two, so that's all kind of very new and still figuring all that out. From the investment side, I've been investing about seven years. Today, as it stands today, I have about somewhere between forty and fifty residential rentals. I'm here locally where I live in Fort Wayne, Indiana. A partner and I have a couple of commercial buildings. We've got three of them. They're worth about 1,000,000 to 1,000,000.5 each, and we're looking to do more and more of that. I'm involved in apartment syndications with Whitehaven Capital in Phoenix, specifically. We've done a number of very large apartment syndications on that front. What else? So I run a company called Clear Sky Properties, which is similar to what you guys do, so direct to seller marketing to acquire more properties locally.

Drew Wiard: [5:03] And then the last thing is, in the last ninety days or so, my partner and I have acquired a business in Detroit, and it's kind of some small or light manufacturing business, but that's what the world looks like today.

Mike DeHaan: [5:15] Perfect. And I guess I want to add on top all the stuff you've done in just seven years. You know, you just left your w two, what, six months ago maybe? Yeah. Not even. Not even. But you also are an active paramotor pilot. Every single time I see you on Instagram, social media, you're out flying around doing stuff. You got four kids? Is that right?

Drew Wiard: [5:33] Four kids. Yep.

Mike DeHaan: [5:34] You got four kids. Four kids. You know, you're an outstanding father. You know, you're always going to their sports games and, you know, doing all this sort of stuff. Like, you are the epitome of living a full life, I feel like, for, you know, like, a holistic view

Drew Wiard: [5:47] and your inner crushing it

Mike DeHaan: [5:48] so many different ways.

Drew Wiard: [5:50] Well, that's that's high praise, man. I I that's probably more than I deserve, but, you know, we'll try.

Mike DeHaan: [5:55] Yeah. We'll You know, like, I I think that, you know, there's just so much to be said about being able to accomplish so many things in a relatively short period of time. I mean, seven years, there's tons of people that have been investing for twenty years that don't haven't accomplished nearly as much as you have. So not even close. So is that when, Drew, seven years ago I didn't know that it was

Dan Austin: [6:13] seven years ago you started that, so that's information to me. Is that when you just started buying single family homes, was seven years ago?

Drew Wiard: [6:18] Yeah, basically, I bought my first home for my wife and I to live in, it wasn't supposed to be an investment, we did that fifteen years ago, we moved out maybe thirteen years ago, and I had that one rental forever, but I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't buy it as an investment, so technically I've had that one for a very long time, but I was heads down family man, career guy, all that kind of stuff in the medicine world, and it was really about seven years ago that we tore into it with intentionality. Awesome.

Mike DeHaan: [6:48] Something else too I'll add is with the properties that you own, I know you've also sold a lot of different properties. You've retraded a lot of different properties. You know? So you've done an incredible number of transactions over that period of time too. So it's not like, you know, you've just you own 40 properties because you bought 40 properties and you maintain them forever, but you're constantly trading, scaling up, buying nicer stuff. You know, you sell a lot of things and own land contract over there too, which is a pretty interesting play. But maybe we can dive into that a little bit. But we're talking before the show about something that I think is super relevant to a lot of our our listeners, especially as they start to actually refine their feet and they start to grow a little bit. And that was about goals. And I cut you guys off when you're talking about because I felt like it was such good content. But, know, you have so many things going on. You left your w two. You're trying to buy this business. You wanna scale. You're doing all these syndication. You have all these rental properties. You're running clear sky properties and doing wholesales and flips and stuff like the Internet deal. What are your goals with all this, man? Because I know I know it's not just to be rich because that's not you. You're not trying to, like, have the Lambo in, like, the big beach house.

Mike DeHaan: [7:53] So so what are your goals with all this?

Drew Wiard: [7:55] Yeah. That's a really good question, you know, and I think Dan had kinda phrased that exact same question as, you know, why do you do it? Like, what are you after? And So it's evolved, it's evolved quite a bit over the years, because again, I used to be medicine man, career guy, and so I started to want to do it just as a security blanket. I'm the sole breadwinner in my house, and in case that job goes away, I'd like to have something with which to put bread on the table. So that's kind of how it started, but then it evolved, as I learned more and it picked up some momentum, then it became, okay, well maybe I'd be able to retire at 55 instead of 65, something like that. And as time goes on and it grows and we find some more success, then it turns into, well, maybe if I wanted to do this full time instead of practice medicine, then I could do that. And that's kind of where we arrived. That kind of became the big, big goal in 'twenty one, and then came to fruition in 'twenty two, but it continues to be an evolution, because now that I have achieved that kind of monumental goal, and some of my net worth goals, and some of these other things, like, well what do I want now? And so we can dive into what it looks like now, but I think just kind of that evolution, if you do this long enough, you'll figure out that your perspective, as you get older, your kids get older, life changes, you'll just want different things.

Drew Wiard: [9:13] And so today, it's really focused about on lifestyle and what I wanna do specifically with my time. Time is the new currency.

Dan Austin: [9:22] Right, I love that. That's so important too, and I think about it, when you're saying that, for a lot of folks that Mike and I tend to bring into our circle as far as through our coaching program or into our podcast as listeners, it's like, they're starting out with that goal. What you said is like, well, I just want a couple rental properties, little extra cash flow, but then that your goals can and should evolve. And it can and should evolve to, I don't even need to work anymore. Now I'm really, now I'm truly, my goals are for myself, and I think that time piece, what you just said, time is the currency, is so valuable, and unfortunately, not a lot of people can get to that point in life financially to where they recognize that.

Mike DeHaan: [10:00] And and it's one of those things you don't really understand until you get there. And I think that one of the sort of faux pas, I guess, with real estate is a lot of people think that you'll buy all these properties, you'll have mailbox money, and then you can just go retire and be on a beach. But that's not very fulfilling. Yeah. You know, even when you sort of reach a level of financial freedom, financial independence, you need something to do with yourself. And what exactly that looks like is different for everybody,

Dan Austin: [10:24] for sure.

Drew Wiard: [10:24] Yeah, finding that thing that's super fulfilling, I think, is really important. Dan had asked earlier, just in the pre show, Okay, now that you're retired, are you working more, you working less? I'm working like a maniac. That's one of the things I've gotta figure out is what does balance look like now that I'm making all my own choices? People give you this terrible advice, terrible advice that says, If you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life, and I think it's trash because the reality is, is if you do what you love, you'll never want to stop. And for me, working is very gratifying. It's not saying I'm a workaholic. I can put it on hold and go on vacation and it's not like I get the shakes or I need a bump or anything, but it is tough for me sometimes to be like, Hey, it's five p. M, it's six p. M, it's time to shut the office down and head home so that you can be fully present.

Dan Austin: [11:14] I think that's like that ultimate integration too that you hear from people, because I bet you, you don't have a problem stopping your day at 02:00 to go paramotor and then come back at five to do some more work. I guarantee you're okay with that or doing whatever you want during your day, and the work and the fun, it's Yeah, all end of

Drew Wiard: [11:32] well, it very much is. It just depends on what you're gonna prioritize, right? So now that I am working for myself, I'm back in the gym pretty regularly, and for some things, it's difficult to stop the office work, but for the gym, it's a piece of cake because that's a staple of what my everyday needs to look like. And when it is time to go fly, we just do that because that's good for my head, it's good for my heart, it's good for balance, and all those sort of things. So yeah, you're right, I think integration of just lifestyle and the things you wanna do, that's kinda where I'm at right now.

Mike DeHaan: [12:02] And like you said, we never wanna stop. Like, you said, it's not even work anymore. Like, honestly, one of the things that, I guess, I struggle with as an entrepreneur is when it comes to, I would say, like, the forced rest time, like things like right now, you know, we're filming this. It's just before Christmas in 2022. I don't really care about Christmas because, like, I I I want to get past it so we can get to the phase where everyone else that is into that can get back to, like getting stuff done again, especially in the real estate business. There's so many different people that are involved in it. And everyone else shuts down. I'm like, yeah, but like, what if we didn't, you know, what if we like just kept going, we could do more stuff. That's what excites me. Like, what it what doesn't excite me is getting gifts. What excites me is, you know, doing business and getting deals. And then, you know, even like when I'm traveling, so I have new wife for big travelers. Like, we were like, went whitewater rafting on the Zambezi River this past September, and it was like a super amazing experience. But man, to tell you what, like, I got a little bit of a buzz just when I got back to the hotel in Zimbabwe. And like, I'm like, oh, I got some like business emails I gotta check.

Mike DeHaan: [13:07] Like, that was equally as exciting to me as getting on the river, you know?

Dan Austin: [13:11] That was it. Yeah. I love it.

Drew Wiard: [13:12] For me, season, it's pebble through the floor. I learned early on, working in corporate, that everyone checks out at Thanksgiving, or maybe they check out for a week and maybe come back and do a week's worth of work, but until the first quarter of the next year starts, everyone's completely out to lunch, and so some of the best deals that I have ever found all come while everybody else is sleeping. Yeah, agreed. There are a lot of people, landlords, big time investors, are looking to retire, or they need to pivot or figure something out tax wise at the end of a calendar year, and they want to move some deals before the calendar resets. If you're in especially the direct to seller marketing, I think everyone dials their mail back a little bit because they assume people are on holiday or they don't want to move. This December is on fire for us compared to the last three or four months. And so, I don't know, December is absolutely go time. 100% agree. Because most everyone else that's hustling stops hustling for six weeks.

Mike DeHaan: [14:15] Yeah. That is interesting. I wonder too with that, like, so you say it's a landlord's list of things. I think one of the challenges that we face, which is a local thing, is we don't really have many institutional people here. Sure. And so, like, we always find that during this period of time, the leads that come through, they generally wanna wait until the New Year. It's cold. It's snowy. They don't wanna kick the tenants out. They don't wanna move, whatever. But we have, a major lag. So, like, right now, it'll be slow, but it'll come around in, January, February. And then it'll be hot. But, like, December's always kind

Dan Austin: [14:44] of a funny time. But you gotta you gotta market now. You gotta make sure you're marketing now so that you do get those opportunities in January. Because, mean, Mike and I tell that to all the folks we work with. It's like, keep it going, because they'll come around, and everybody else that you said, Drew, know a lot of folks over the years, our competitors are

Mike DeHaan: [14:59] like, nah, we just kinda shut down for December. Everybody's in

Dan Austin: [15:01] the holidays. It's like, I feel like that's like a cop out to not wanna work for a month, honestly.

Drew Wiard: [15:05] So, if you're, you know, because every market's different, right? Even if your market slows down, take that month and that extra time to work on your SOPs, or refresh your website, or dial in your systems, or write a job description for the executive assistant that you should've hired six months ago. Just go full I tilt on don't know, I love working in November and December.

Mike DeHaan: [15:26] Yeah, I like it internally, for sure. I find that I get a lot of stuff done that way, you know, was where I've been optimized a lot of our process. When I did it, I did an Instagram post the other day. And that's literally what I said. And like, like the things that you during the slow season, one of them was working on your internal processes, because I know that's what Dan and I have been heavily focusing It's easy to forget about that, especially over the summer when you're doing so many transactions and all these sort of things. You just like, don't have time to trying to keep the building from burning down the entire time. So but no. That's awesome. So I just love your your viewpoint on stuff. So let let's dive into your investing a little bit, particularly with, I guess, the residential side. I think that's what relates mostly to to most of our listeners. And particularly how you started that, and like how you sort of scaled so quickly on that side. Because, you know, yeah, you're in, I would say, like a cheaper market, but you're also in a market where, I don't know, it's highly competitive throughout there. Like, there's a lot of people that, you know, like hedge funds, things like that, that buy all throughout that area, but yet you've been able to find a pretty sweet niche for yourself.

Drew Wiard: [16:30] Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, from the high level, like, I'm a passive income guy. Like, that is my thing. You know, I see a lot of people who do direct to seller marketing, and they want to do all the flips and all the transactional pieces and parts of it, and I have nothing against that. I think that's a great way to make a living and all of that, but my goal is to choose whether or not to work every single day. And as you guys know, this business is at a crap load of work. It's one of the hardest of all the types of investing that we've done. So for me, even from the beginning, it's rental property, land contracts, or in some states they're called contract for deed, basically just holding a note against a property where I have no accountability for it. Multiple streams of income is basically it, where the need for me to be present is absolutely minimal. And that feeds into the commercial deals that we do as well. If I built my rental portfolio over about seven years and it's this big, we built that commercial portfolio and it's almost just as big and throws off more income and is less headache than the entire residential side. So for me, it's all about passive income. The only reason I do direct to seller marketing is so that of the four houses we get this month, I'm gonna cherry pick the one to add to my rental portfolio. Right.

Drew Wiard: [17:48] And that's really it. The rest of them, I rarely put them on the MLS, I just put them straight out to my local Ria group that I started and host the local Ria here. And so I help give my friends as many deals as they can get. And I have sold a lot of really good deals to them, I just either, it just doesn't meet my criteria to hold for the next twenty years.

Mike DeHaan: [18:07] So, I had a question for

Dan Austin: [18:08] you on the land contract. So, do you exclusively, so you own 40 to 50 right now. Are they all exclusively being held on land contract with somebody, or do you actually keep them as rental properties true?

Drew Wiard: [18:18] Yeah, really good question. I would say probably of, let's say we've got 45 rentals, I would say I've only got seven or eight that are for sale on land contract. Gotcha. And that's a deep conversation to decide which route you wanna go and in which type of markets that's the best way to go. I've been investing long enough now that we've kind of been at the top of the market, and we haven't been at the bottom of the market, but it's just different right now, and there's probably some good opportunities to do that exact sort of transaction. So pros and cons on both sides, but it's a small sliver of the portfolio.

Mike DeHaan: [18:50] Yeah, just touching on what exactly a land contract is, because I know there are people that have never heard of that before, especially because it's not common, at least over here on the West Side Of The United States,

Drew Wiard: [18:59] for sure. Right. So across The US, your state is going to be one of two types, and they will either do land contracts or they will do contract for deed. And the simple way to think about it is, let's say that Drew owns a house and Mike wants to either rent or he wants to buy, for whatever reason, he can't go buy a house. Maybe he had a divorce or his credit's bad or medical bills or whatever, or maybe he started a business and he's not financeable for the next two or three years. There's a lot of reasons why people can't go get traditional funding, and those are the cases that I'm looking to help. So what I'll do is let's say that I've got a house that I'm willing to sell and it's $200,000 I'm gonna make sure it may not be flawless, but it is clean and mechanically sound, like it's a good house, right? There's no hidden issues with it. And so I will choose to sell it to Mike, but rather than sell it traditionally where he's going to go get a loan and we'll go to the title company or the lawyer to close it, I'm basically going to be the bank. That's the simplest way to think about it, is I am the bank. And so in a land contract, what happens is you decide on what the terms should be. So for my land contracts, I require 10% down, so you'd have to come with $20,000 and then I will give you a mortgage or a note against the property, and it's usually thirty years, everyone wants a thirty year note, and I will choose, we will agree on an interest rate, and it's usually what the current rate is plus about three percentage points. So it'll be amortized over thirty years, but it may or may not balloon, meaning the rest of the amount's due in five years, seven years, ten years, something like that. And at that point, then the contract buyer, or Mike in this example, would go get standard financing. The beauty of that is I still have title to the property, so if you stop paying, it's easier for me to get it back.

Drew Wiard: [20:57] The other beauty is I'm not a landlord in that example. I'm the bank, right? So when your kid stuffs a diaper down the toilet and everything's backed up and you've got a problem, you would never call the bank to help fix that problem. So when my land contract people call me, I give them the name of a plumber. So the maintenance is on you. This is your house, and you're the owner of record at the county.

Dan Austin: [21:19] And you need no property management. And then also, one question, do you still get to use depreciation because you're still holding title?

Drew Wiard: [21:27] You do. So you do, and there's kind of an art to it that's, it's kind of complex. I know my CPA has had to do a lot of research to figure out the best way to do that. You do get to depreciate it, but I would have to, I'd lean on someone else to answer that part of it.

Mike DeHaan: [21:42] Right.

Dan Austin: [21:42] I mean, it's just it is a benefit then.

Mike DeHaan: [21:44] Cool. I'm glad you added that part on to Dan, and I was gonna bring that up as well as how is this different from seller financing, but it is because you get to maintain title of the properties. You don't have to go through a foreclosure. We have to receive the deed back if they default on it. But I guess also too, one I just want clarification. Can you do this if you have a mortgage on the property?

Drew Wiard: [22:04] Yeah. A 100%. A lot of people think that you can, but every single land contract property that I have, usually I'll buy it with cash, either my own cash or somebody else's cash, private money lender, something like that. I will then find Mike who wants to buy it on land contract, and we'll set up our negotiations, and I will let Mike know, okay, once you and I are locked in, then I'm gonna have the bank come and give me a loan behind this, and you'll have to sign a subordination agreement that you know that Drew has a loan against the property, but when you go to pay it off, all the stipulations of that loan, your payment goes to pay that loan off, and I get whatever's left. That's awesome. The downside to it, and I've learned this, you'll only learn this over time, is in the Midwest, they don't appreciate. I owned a single house for ten years, and it went up like $10. It's asinine. Don't invest in the Midwest. You invest for cash flow, not for appreciation. However, now all of a sudden, like the last two years, the whole world appreciated because of inflation, right? And my local market, Fort Wayne, has really exploded quite So a I have two houses that are exactly I bought them at the exact same time, the exact same numbers. I think I paid like $80, which sounds like nothing to you guys, but these are actually pretty nice houses. They have each appreciated up to $200,000

Mike DeHaan: [23:23] Wow. That's crazy.

Drew Wiard: [23:24] One of them's a rental, which is great because I get to enjoy the value of that going up, right? If I were to sell it today, I'd get all that equity. The rents go up with time. On the land contract that I locked in four years ago, it's only good for the $130,000 that I sold it to them for, and that was where the market was. I don't inflate my land contracts. That's what it was worth. But now the land contract buyer has the benefit from 130 to 200,000, that $70,000 where if they complete their land contract, then they get all that equity, and that kinda sucks for me. Now I got exactly what I asked for, and I didn't pay realtors, and I didn't have just the whole mess of selling a traditional house, but I missed out on the equity build. Now, if they fail on their land contract, I get that house back, and we can rinse and repeat. But that is, now that I've done it for a while, if you're in a inflationary time, that's probably not the best time to do a land contract.

Mike DeHaan: [24:21] Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I remember hanging out with you, I guess, one of the times we went down to Florida for one of our our other meetups. And I I remember you literally said is like, you know, I know we're in a bubble because houses where I'm at are now going up. It's like, that has never

Dan Austin: [24:36] happened before.

Drew Wiard: [24:38] Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

Mike DeHaan: [24:39] Yeah. Yeah. But no, that that's cool, though. But then, so I just wanna shift gears a little bit. So you said that, you know, you you build your portfolio residentials this way over the last number of years, which is awesome. But now you've started doing commercial, and you started the commercial pretty recently over the past, like, what, one or two years maybe. And that is now producing as much cash flow is equal value pretty much, and is way less of a headache even than than that. So I guess a, how did you get into the commercial stuff? And are we talking triple net or like multifamily?

Drew Wiard: [25:10] Yep. That's a great great qualifier. So not multifamily. We do that in the syndication space, but I feel that that's just a completely different thing. For me, when I talk about commercial, our goal is triple net. Sometimes we get double net. We do have some tenants that have a modified gross lease. If you get into the commercial world, those are usually the three types you have, a modified gross, a double net, or a triple net lease. And we have three properties. One of them is a warehouse that's pure triple net. I hear nothing They've from those been there fifteen years, they've got like nine more years on the lease, it's a slam dunk. We're accountable for nothing other than the roof. One of them is kind of like a medical office park that was only maybe 40% rented when we bought it, and if things go well, we'll be 100% rented up here in the spring at the latest. And then one of them is a mixed use building in Downtown South Bend where it's retail on the bottom that has offices on the 2nd Level, and then the 3rd Level is actually a shell that we haven't done anything with, that it's probably time to figure out, are these gonna be luxury downtown flats? I don't know, that's residential and it's out of town and that's a lot of work, but maybe it's shared office space.

Drew Wiard: [26:24] I don't know. Yeah. We have some choices there.

Dan Austin: [26:26] So, I've got a couple questions for you. I wanna start as like, so you know how to find residential properties. Yeah. You're good at it. You got a whole business around that. How did you start finding commercial? Like, what was that step to go from ham residential to, I'm gonna start buying commercial, because that's a big leap for a lot of investors that are just on the residential side.

Drew Wiard: [26:43] Well, so the impetus to make the change is it occurred to me, like I've missed my opportunity to scale. I didn't have someone around who was ahead of me who could tell me the value of scaling and how important it is. It's good to have rental property and it's nice to start paying them off and building equity, but if you have a $2,000,000 portfolio and you only owe a million dollars on that, so it's paid off halfway, is that the highest and best return on your equity? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but if you were to sell that whole $2,000,000 portfolio and now you've got a million dollars, you could use that million dollars as a 20% down payment on a $5,000,000 building, and by scaling up, that's gonna throw off, that is, it should throw off notably more cash flow. And so when that light bulb went off, I said, okay, I've gotta start looking at how do I scale up? And the other thing was I already had 40 houses, or maybe 35 at the time. If I wanna double my income, do I want 35 more Exactly. Not really. I mean, I'll take them, but there's gotta be a better way. That's what pointed me that direction. I have a partner on my commercial deals, and while I was coming up on the residential side for five or six years, he was coming up on the industrial side, so he was very familiar with that space, and so we came together. He's brilliant with underwriting numbers, lease management, things like that, and then I have no fear of confrontation and dealing with tenants and telling people no, and then I go raise private money for quite a bit. So all three of those commercial deals, we raised private money for the down payments, so we bought all of them with none of our own money.

Dan Austin: [28:20] Nice. And that was my second question, because again, you probably know how to fund a residential property, and you can probably fund a lot of those yourself anyways if you're buying them with below market. So you used private money to fund these acquisitions. Now is that like an equity share? Is that like a preferred return? Like, how did you structure that just maybe quickly?

Drew Wiard: [28:40] Yeah. Can give it to you real quick. When when you are bringing private money in, if it's for houses and stuff, they usually just want x amount of percent, couple of points, and when you exit the deal, they get paid. On the commercial side and on big deals, you have a decision as to whether or not you're gonna provide debt or equity or both. And the debt means you took some debt from them, you're gonna pay them a percentage on Equity means maybe they're a 20% owner, and when you exit, they get 20% of the big cash windfall on the backside. So for us, with these commercial deals, I had a lot of people who I was already using private money with already, but I'd had their money for ninety days, sixty days, one hundred and twenty days, and they wanted something that was long term, locked in. And so we said, Okay, we'll pay you 8% interest only every single month, like mailbox money for the next five years. You know exactly if you put this amount in, you will get this check back every single month. And so on these three commercial deals, there's no equity for those investors, but it is it's the debt is there, and they know exactly what sort of check they're gonna get every

Dan Austin: [29:50] That's awesome. That's great.

Mike DeHaan: [29:51] So how do you structure those relationships with them? Do they like, are they an owner in the LLC that owns the property? Is it like a personal guarantee? I'm asking this as a selfish question, because Dan and I are trying to figure out the legalities of raising money. Because honestly, we've never really done it. The little bit of money that we've raised has been kinda like handshake deals from friends, and I've started to take it seriously. A, I don't wanna lose people's money. B, I don't wanna go to jail. So I wanna make sure that we're doing stuff kinda by the book. So I guess how have you approached it?

Drew Wiard: [30:21] No. It's it's a great question. We went through the same mental gymnastics a year ago, and this brings up some trauma from trying to figure out how do you do this? Goal was to make it simple, okay? So my partner and I have an LLC, and the LLC's gonna buy that building. The challenge was if we were gonna raise $350,000 and we had seven people that wanted to bring $50, okay, are you going to give them a second lien, third lien, fourth lien, fifth lien, sixth lien? Are you going to give them all these different positions behind the bank? Because that's generally what I do with my lenders, is I give them a note mortgage against my property. But if you're the guy or the gal who has the seventh lien position, it's worthless. It's absolutely nothing. Yeah, doesn't help them at all. So technically, these individuals, they know the deal that we've used their money for, we're very transparent about that, but they're not technically tethered to that deal, and I wouldn't even call it an investment. It's technically a loan from them as an individual or their entity to us as a business, as an LLC. Now, because they're not tethered to the property and they don't have a lien position, my partner and I do provide a personal guarantee, And I don't mind doing that. It's not something I wanna do forever, but it's a means to an end here in the short.

Mike DeHaan: [31:38] Yeah, okay. So interesting. So it is literally just like a business loan. It's not backed by any specific collateral necessarily. It is a loan to your business besides your personal assets.

Drew Wiard: [31:48] That's right. And some people kind of balked at that at first, and I said, Hey, I get it, but let me tell you why I think this is a good thing. Here's my net worth and my PFS. Here's my partners. Together, we're worth X million dollars, right? And what I'm telling you is if I flake on this, you can come take my house, you can take my cars, you can take any of these other assets that you see on my balance sheet, as opposed to just this one building or property. And the other selling point that is honest, and I think was really impactful for them is we're new at the commercial space, we have a lot of success, and I have every bit of confidence we'll be fine in this. But since you're not tethered to the property, I owe you that money whether this property does incredibly well or whether we absolutely eat dirt on it. And so it's a way to insulate or protect them from being tethered to the success of this project. Does that make sense?

Dan Austin: [32:47] They have to believe in you ness more than they do the project.

Drew Wiard: [32:50] Yeah, and there are gonna be some investors like the multi millionaires, the professional investors, they'll take that risk on the building because they want the equity position, right? Well, some people want less risk, and that's kind of what we provided. It's a lower risk, lower return, but it's a good fit for everybody. That's interesting. And I think

Mike DeHaan: [33:10] that that's an okay way to go while you're in like that. I don't know. When you have a little bit of relationships with people, and you're kind of in like that lower money raising phase, but it's when people are getting into the position where they're raising 10,000,000, 39, $50,000,000 funds but you definitely double 100 for any personal guarantees for $50,000,000 where the stuff is. Unless you're really balling, but at which point, like, I don't know. That's that's just a different book.

Drew Wiard: [33:38] Yeah. Well, the thing is, like, I don't wanna give personal guarantees where I don't have to, but on one of those buildings, we waste $3.50, I'll personally guarantee that. That doesn't mean I'm sitting on piles and piles and piles of cash, but if I had to liquidate some things, or sell one of my rentals, to make a note, right, have the bandwidth and the capacity to do that. By the time you're getting to a $10,000,000 building, you're gonna be working with the bank, and you should be to the point where there's no more personal guarantees Right,

Dan Austin: [34:07] And you made a good point earlier when you were talking about scaling and buying this building, and you just said too, you could personally guarantee $350. Okay. But you have a partner that came on with you that probably gives you a lot of confidence that his underwriting and scaling into this commercial properties gives you a lot of confidence overall to give that personal guarantee in this limited capacity.

Drew Wiard: [34:31] Yeah, absolutely. He brought a lot to the table. I brought a lot to the table, and most of these private money lenders I'm talking to, I already have relationships with, and they've been paid on time, every time, just like I promised them. And there are a couple of new ones, but you show them, look, like here, I can't show you the names of my other investors, but here's this check, and this check, and this check, and the dates they went out. We automate everything, so there's not even a chance to forget to pay someone. It just happens. Makes sense. And if you go back and you look at the last eighteen months, these are people who had $5,102,100 grand just sitting in the bank or in the stock market, right? So if you think about what they've done, they pulled their money out of the stock market, which absolutely tanked, depending on what you're invested in, everything went down, or they had it just sitting in the bank and inflation just went berserk, right? So 8% every single month that they know that they can count on for the next five years during an inflationary time, that's a gift for someone who's just sitting on extra cash.

Mike DeHaan: [35:29] Yeah, absolutely. You're doing what I would say. Like, I'll give sorry. Keep it simple, stupid. Like, it is just so rudimentary, and I think so many people try to make it more complicated than it is. Yeah. So that's super, super cool. So I guess your your commercial stuff that you have now, you have those three properties that you raised for, you're trying to figure out kind of, I guess, the end game for those. Are those like long time hold? Are you looking to sell them to pay off your investors? Do you have any sort of stipulations with that with your investors? Or is it like you're open to refinance and pay them off at some point?

Drew Wiard: [36:01] So, in the commercial world, you generally will get a five year It might be amortized over ten, fifteen, twenty years, but in five years, you're gonna have to re up with the bank. So we set the investor notes to happen at the exact same time. We may pay them off early, but we'll probably refinance on the things we want to keep, so like the warehouse. You said it and forget it, right? We'll refinance in five years, we might refinance them out, we'll see what that looks like. With the other buildings, they're somewhat like a repositioning. They weren't performing the way that we wanted them to, but that's the opportunity for us, is to buy them and start to reposition them. So if we kept them for the rest of our lives or for a long time, they should cash flow just fantastic as time goes further and further down the road. And they're locked in at the bank at 3.5% or 4%, so we're just knocking the It's principal on these things down like tough to say. The one building like the medical office, if we get that filled, we bought it for 600, you might be able to sell it for 2 And million or something like if we can That'd do that be great. Then we might take those profits and we might pay down equipment for the new business or the SBA loan we took to buy the business, and that would be massively So, we're kind of in a constant state of reevaluating. Where's the market at? Where's our greater risk at? Like, what do we want to How do we optimize what we have?

Dan Austin: [37:24] Yeah, yeah, at that phase of

Mike DeHaan: [37:26] just trying to figure out what the best ROI is, kind you said before, of like the different pots of money, you know, the different properties, and what are

Dan Austin: [37:33] your goals, where your goals have adapted at that point in your life, right? On the back end of these loans, where you might change your mind.

Drew Wiard: [37:39] That's exactly it, right? So if we were to sell that building for $2,000,000 the smartest, the highest ROI would be to do a ten thirty one exchange so that we can defer the taxation and we'd go buy something else. So we'd have, I don't know, a million and 0.5 or something to go buy a 6 or $7,000,000 building. That's the highest ROI. But we bought a business that's manufacturing and it is subject to economy and different things, So, that kind of money would pay off three fifths of a business. So, six months ago, we didn't have the business, so I would've told you, Yeah, we're just ten thirty one, and we just keep rocking and rolling. Well, now my goals have changed, just like So, you I think risk mitigation is every bit as important as getting the highest ROI, and I'm kind of past the point in my life where the highest ROI means the most. I'm willing to take a lower ROI if it means that twice a week I can play some video games or go fly.

Dan Austin: [38:36] Right, you can sleep more, you can go fly. Come on Drew, how

Mike DeHaan: [38:40] are you ever gonna have the 10,000 square foot lake house and Ferrari the You

Drew Wiard: [38:46] won't, you won't, and that's the thing. You just won't, and I don't know, I feel like, now granted, I'm still growing, I wanna grow my passive income, and I'd like to get to the point where I don't have to hustle some, but I feel like I have this one thing that most investors don't, and it's enough.

Dan Austin: [39:05] Dude, that's great.

Drew Wiard: [39:06] You know what I mean? At some point, it's enough. Would like, sure, I'd like to have a $250,000 in passive income. That is absolutely a goal, and I'm not there yet, right? I'm still just shy of 6 figures in passive income. And so I'd like to get there, but my kids are healthy, my wife and I have time to do some of the things that we want to do. We'd like to take more vacations, but we still have teenagers and stuff at home and we'll get there. So I don't know, I just don't need, like when's enough enough? I don't know. When you're living the life that you wanna live, that's probably enough, and right now life's alright.

Mike DeHaan: [39:40] There you go, that's so awesome. I don't

Dan Austin: [39:42] know that I've heard a more true and a more valuable quote that in the confidence you say it with is so amazing.

Mike DeHaan: [39:48] And that was authentic. Like, that, like, literally gave me chills, just like the way that you say that. Yeah. Mine accomplished.

Dan Austin: [39:55] I'm passed

Drew Wiard: [39:55] over. We're done. Yeah.

Mike DeHaan: [39:57] Drop the mic. It's such a viable lesson to you for most people. You know, and even though like, I don't know, I have, I guess I would say larger financial goals. But that's also like, that's where I want to be as doesn't necessarily mean that that's the same thing that everyone has to do. And not everything needs to be out keeping up with the Joneses, especially when the Joneses are now the, you know, 22 year old YouTube people that like, don't actually have any true value behind their money, even though they make so much of it. Right? But that's like, what the youth and all these other sort of people view as success right now. You don't need to be chasing that like it. Probably And not gonna

Drew Wiard: [40:33] be worth it when you're parent. No. I completely agree. So we've got teenagers at home. Right? We've got four kids, and they range from 13 to 20, almost 22. Right? Because I'm an old man and I have 20 year

Mike DeHaan: [40:44] olds.

Drew Wiard: [40:45] My kids are probably closer in age to you guys than And I we have these conversations about, oh, Becca's family's loaded. This house that they live in, and we have a nice house. Like here in the Midwest, you can, we have, I don't know, 6,000 square feet or something, and it's a joke. Compared to what you guys would pay for a house like that, it's less than 500,000.

Mike DeHaan: [41:09] It really

Dan Austin: [41:09] is balling out in Fort Wayne, 6,000 square feet.

Mike DeHaan: [41:12] Yeah, don't want much, just my 6,000 square foot house.

Drew Wiard: [41:15] Well, that's the thing, that's not Okay, so that was not intended to be a flex. The point I was getting at was my kids will come home and say, Oh, their family's super rich, or Their family's super rich, and the question I ask them, and of course they don't know the answer, is is it because they're rich or they look rich? If mom lost her job or dad lost his job, how many months do they have before they have to start selling that house? Because if I make no money for the next two years, I can pay for I've got two years. And so I try to teach my kids, what is rich, what is wealthy? Well, to me, wealth is a measure of time. It's how long can you live the current lifestyle you have if nothing else came in? And for most of these rich kids that they see, I bet it's not more than ninety to one hundred

Dan Austin: [42:11] and twenty days. Probably not, if that. It's priority loaded up on credit cards. That's super cool. Another good quote. I'm gonna pull out some good quotes here. I do have one question. This is selfish for me, it's gonna probably take us down a rabbit hole that Mike's probably not too interested in. But, like, what are you doing with your kids to do that, to show value? And then what is your goal with your kids? Is it that they don't ever work at W2 and that they follow dad in the entrepreneurial footsteps? Is that? Because there's a business goal for you, I'm sure, related to your kids.

Drew Wiard: [42:41] Yeah, it's a great question, because, So I've been investing for seven years or so, but I've been reading Rich Dad Poor Dad in the podcast, and my kids have been around long enough that they hate podcasts, right, because dad always had them on in the car. Whatever your folks made you listen to, it's like you're torturing them. So we talk a lot about money. I think as they've gotten older, I've learned that just being that example of you can tell them all the things, but you have to show them. And it's the same with how you live your life. I haven't always been a good example with the way I eat, right? So there's an opportunity to show my kids a better way to do that. When it comes to faith and reading scripture, I can tell them to go read their Bible, right? But it's much more impactful when they know that I'm doing it, right? So we talk a lot about money and what it is and what it isn't and what the world expects it to be. I do believe investors have this problem or this mentality where our light bulb has gone off and passive income, and financial freedom, and tax benefits, and all this, and why doesn't the whole world do this? The whole world can't, and they shouldn't, right? We need people at McDonald's, and at the bank, and at the hospital, we need society to function. And so when I talk to my kids, we talk a lot about it's not what you want to do when you grow up, but what kind of life do you want to live, right? Because we're in the throes of trying to pick colleges, and what's your major gonna be, and I've got one coming out of college, and everyone asks these kids, Well, do wanna be when you grow up, or what do you wanna do?

Drew Wiard: [44:16] What kind of life do you wanna live? That's the question, right? So then go shopping for the career that points towards the kind of life that you wanna live. Now, most people wanna be free and they wanna have lots of money, and of course that's exactly what teenagers want. Okay, so you need to find something that gives you some of that freedom. Maybe it's real estate, maybe it's investing, but maybe it's being an anesthesiologist who gets twelve weeks of vacation and gets paid $900,000 a year.

Dan Austin: [44:43] Yeah, right. Those sound terrible.

Drew Wiard: [44:44] Yeah. So I've had to learn not to, not everyone's built to be an investor or an entrepreneur, and I've had to learn how to not shove that down their throat and realize, like my daughter's graduating from interior design school, and she loves it, and she's very good at it, and that may very well be the highest and best use of her talents, and that's how she's gonna contribute to society. She can still invest on the side, and I can teach her how to house hack, and I can do all these things if she's interested, but it's not something you can force on them. Honestly, the more you force it, the more they'll probably push back.

Dan Austin: [45:16] They push back. I have a five year old, and that's definitely the case.

Mike DeHaan: [45:19] Yeah, awesome. Well, yeah. Well, so much good stuff, Drew. I I really, really appreciate giving your insight and everything. Like I said, I think you're so level headed just in the way that you that you view stuff, and it's a way that I think is a much healthier view on, like, life and investing in business than most people have, you know, myself included in that. So awesome. So I wanna dive into our end of show questions here. We have three questions that we ask every guest that comes on. Don't worry. There's nothing too difficult in there. So first question, which is always the the favorite, what is the craziest real estate investing story that you have? It could be good story, you know, big win, big loss, crazy whatever. The only rule is it cannot be about finding a dead person in a property because we get too many of those, and

Dan Austin: [46:04] it's and it's a bummer. You get a lot

Drew Wiard: [46:06] of those. Yeah, I was gonna say, we've got some of those.

Mike DeHaan: [46:09] Yeah, it's a bummer every time. I'm like, I wanna hear something funny, you know? Yeah.

Drew Wiard: [46:13] Yeah. You know, I wish my buddies, two buddies that I am good friends with, they host the Real Estate Disasters podcast, and it focuses on that kind of stuff, and I haven't been able to be a guest yet because I don't have a whole lot of disasters. I wish I did. I tend to be really conservative, and I'm sure my day's coming. The worst that I've had is I did buy a property at the sheriff's sale, so you're not supposed to go in the property, right? Of course, I've got keys to everything in town, so I had been in the property, right? But it's sight unseen, you get what you get, Not a big deal, right? So I bought this house. It was a great discount. Moved the tenants in and water starts backing up. Okay, so we've got a problem. We'll just bring the sewer people out and they'll clean it out. It's not a big deal. To make a very long story short, it was a complete collapse of the sewer lines that was there, and it should've cost $6, $7, something like that, but the drain out to the municipal sewer. I'm responsible for everything up to the city's drains, right? Well, my sewer line was nine feet deep, which is way deeper than what it normally is, and it went under the street to the other side of the street. They had to dig They super far to shut the road down. They had to dig under the road. It was just a disaster. So I think it was north of $20 by the time we were done.

Drew Wiard: [47:38] Now fortunately, time heals all mistakes for the most part, right? So five years later, I was cash flow positive again, and that's been an amazing rental ever since. But be cautious with what you buy at the sheriff sale, because you can't expect it, and you just need to have bigger reserves because you never know what's gonna pop up.

Mike DeHaan: [47:57] I think sewers are kind of like the hidden thing that a lot of new investors don't even realize. Dan and I, yeah, we almost got The bit by that very first property we went to together, and they found that the line was like 25 feet below the ground. And we were getting quotes of like 40 to $50 just to replace the sewer grant sewer line, but because it was on a busy street. So they were gonna have to like stop traffic, which had its own cost and all this sort of stuff.

Drew Wiard: [48:21] Yep. Yeah. What a nightmare.

Dan Austin: [48:23] It was expensive. And it was like tied into like a clay tile pipe and like all the everything. And then they're like, well, if you just like clean it out every year, you'll probably be okay.

Mike DeHaan: [48:33] Okay. Because it was at least well, I mean, the fact that it was clay and it wasn't the orange burg. So it had my collapse, and it just had we get roots in it all the time. So now we just have to be super on top of maintaining as long as pay $50 to replace the freaking sewer pipe. Yeah. But That's crazy. No. So that that's a good one. You got a good, I guess, like, landlord lesson there. Alright. Second question. What is a piece of advice you would give to either a new investor, like sort of looking to get started in real estate, or a small time investor looking to take their business to the next level?

Drew Wiard: [49:03] Yeah, that's a good question. I get tons of new people that come to the Ria that wanna get started, right? And I think there's a lot of people frustrated right now because the rates are up and it's harder to find deals and all that kind of stuff. And I try to remind folks that there's so much that you can do right now to prepare yourself. And so, if you're not educating yourself, you need to be listening to the podcast, you need to be YouTube and the books and whatever you can. But man, networking is everything. I mean, we met each other because we network, right? The number of deals that happen in my local Ria is staggering. And most of the time, they never even get advertised. I know that Eric needs this kind of deal, and when I get one, I call him, and we close it. It's just that easy. So if you're not educating yourself and networking while you for, while you build your cash reserves, or while you wait for your partner to get ready, or while you learn how to raise, whatever it is that you feel is slowing you down, there's still a ton of work that can be done. Find a mentor or ask questions, and at some point you're gonna have to rip the band aid off, but it drives me nuts when people say, Well, I'm gonna wait for eighteen months until the market comes back. That's a failed mentality.

Dan Austin: [50:13] That's a terrible idea. There's tons of stuff you could do between now and Yeah, eighteen like an insane amount of it.

Mike DeHaan: [50:18] Yeah. You know, I think that's supervising. That's how I got started too when I started flipping, was I met someone at the local Ria, who I actually connected with on BiggerPockets forums beforehand, methamphetorrhea, and then they would find the flips that we did together. Because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Like, I didn't have any money. And we're both like, I guess, whether make misery less company, we're both just like completely ignorant to how it works, but they had cash. And I had nothing else to do. So we're like, cool. I'll like figure out how to put the shit together. You just bring the money and it It was, you know, match made in heaven because we both just went through caution of the wind and figured it out, you know.

Drew Wiard: [50:53] Yeah. But you started. You took action. You you networked, and you found you know, you started doing Exactly. And, you know, we have people that will come to our rea, and I'm grateful for everyone that comes, but they've been there for And it's time to crap or

Dan Austin: [51:03] go off Exactly. The

Drew Wiard: [51:04] Eventually, you gotta just rip the handle and go. Totally.

Dan Austin: [51:08] Cool. Absolutely.

Mike DeHaan: [51:09] Last question. Where can people find you, follow you, and reach out to you if you'd like to do so?

Drew Wiard: [51:15] Yeah. The easiest way to find me is probably just on the social platforms, theflyinginvestor. You'll probably get pictures of my kids. You'll get real estate investing. You'll see me strap a butt fan to my back and go berserk for a while.

Mike DeHaan: [51:27] So, found your only fan, so right? Say, I got some contacts with that. Yeah.

Drew Wiard: [51:33] Butt. That's probably the easiest

Dan Austin: [51:34] Yeah, way to Drew does have some pretty sweet shots of him flying

Mike DeHaan: [51:38] around I on love it. He's gotten

Dan Austin: [51:41] me hooked. I'm already a paramotor in my mind because I I followed Drew on social.

Mike DeHaan: [51:45] Let's go.

Dan Austin: [51:45] Yeah. I'll help you.

Mike DeHaan: [51:46] Yeah. Let's do it. Do that. And you can see pictures of your freaking massive son just, like, wrecking other kids on the

Dan Austin: [51:53] Yeah. How did that happen? How did he get so big? Did you guys give him some growth Eighteen

Drew Wiard: [51:58] years ago, we had a really tall nail man. That's the only thing I could

Mike DeHaan: [52:01] figure out.

Dan Austin: [52:02] Was just like him.

Drew Wiard: [52:03] It's weird. You know, he looks like the men in my wife's Like, side of the he's a dead ringer. So there's there's gotta be something to it there. But I'm five nine, he's six three, and I don't know, two ten, and he's just a wrecking ball. He's it's insane.

Mike DeHaan: [52:16] Yeah. He's an

Dan Austin: [52:16] athlete, man. That's super cool.

Mike DeHaan: [52:18] So, yeah. Awesome. Well, definitely go and followed you guys. He's a great follow on social media for sure. And now that you have like some of your spare business, you do drop a lot of great knowledge on there too. You're regularly putting out tips on different deals and situations that I think are really, really viable for anybody. Let's check that out. So awesome. Alright, guys. Well, thanks so much for listening. Please go and leave us a five star review. We're able to listen to your podcast and share this with other people who want to know what's possible while still being like a, you know, a cool relatable dude, just like Drew. You know, we don't always all have to be like finance pros or guys that are doing the hustle and grind thing, which I mean, Drew does, but he also does without being giant douchebag. So you should definitely share this with anyone who also wants to be rich and not be a giant douchebag. So yeah, so and if you want to learn how to find off market deals, just like Dan and I do, and how Drew does he does the same business as us. Go to collectingkeyspodcast.com/free, You can get our free five step guide to start generating off market leads that will get you started right away. And aside from that, guys, thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to all next week. See you. See you. Thanks for listening, everybody.

Mike DeHaan: [53:26] Please make sure you subscribe and leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, please make sure you go and you share this with other people within your network. We are really trying to grow this thing, and the best way for us to do so is by you telling other people to come and check us out. You can also follow us on Instagram. I am at Mike underscore Invest. Dan is at InvestorMan Dan. You can follow the podcast at collecting keys podcast. And if you wanna learn how to make real money as a real estate investor or you want to grow your already existing real estate investing business, please go and check out instantinvestorprogram.com and book a call with either Dan or myself, and we will see if you'll be a good fit. Thanks for listening everybody, and talk to you next week.

Speaker 2: [54:08] Thanks for listening. Please leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, and check us out at collectingkeyspodcast.com for tips and guides on starting your own real estate investment and wholesaling business.